God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by AAF, May 14, 2003.

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  1. AAF Registered Senior Member


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    Simply stated, Ockham’s Razor is this: "Get rid of redundant entities".

    God is a redundant entity. Because it's much simpler to assume that the world is eternal. The hypothesis of Creator explains nothing. It simply pushes the PROBLEM one floor upstairs! It's futile and redundant.

    Can God create Himself?
    He must. Because God is not just any creator. God, by definition, is an Absolute Creator. The Absolute Creator, who cannot create Himself, is a contradiction in terms.

    But that presents at once a thorny and unresolvable dilemma.

    Whether God can or cannot create Himself, a believer must land himself upon one of the two horns of this DILEMMA:

    God can create Himself out of NOTHING. Therefore, NOTHINGNESS is greater than Him.

    Or God cannot create Himself out of NOTHING. Therefore, He is not absolute. He is relative, weak, and completely redundant.

    In many respects, the idea of God is very similar to the idea of a little spot, which is completely black and completely white at the same time! Such a spot cannot exist as a real possibility, because it is self-contradictory.

    Every thing whose concept is contradictory does not exist.
    The concept of God is contradictory.
    Therefore, God does not exist.

    In short, the idea of God is self-contradictory, and logically unfounded. Accordingly, it's false. To do away with it, its self-contradiction is enough. No further disproof is required.

    So why do people claim from time to time that 'God' cannot be proved or disproved scientifically?

    The only explanation of such an obvious fallacy is that 'Homo sapiens' by nature is a social animal and always ready to do anything to please inmates and get along with them even on the expense of reason and logic.

    The last refuge for the folks of faith to save their 'Eternal God' from the ravages of logic and reason is to suppose that either He is timeless or He is living outside time all by Himself!

    Nice try! But it doesn't help them at all. To say that God is outside of time is logically equivalent to and the same as saying that He does not exist.

    moreover, getting rid of time is absolutely impossible. And even when you deny time in words, you affirm it logically in a big way. The reason for this absolute impossibility is that the flow of time forms a homogeneous continuum of all rates from the infinitely small to the infinitely large all at once. And each rate of time flow implies the rest as a necessary consequence.

    Take as an example the ordinary pendulum clock!
    It has three hands that run at different rates.
    These three hands of the clock are only a partial snapshot of the actual flow of time.

    The second hand implies on its side an infinite series of hands that run at faster and faster rates until end up with the moment hand where the rate of time flow is infinite.

    The hour hand of the clock, also, implies, on its side, an infinite series of hands which run at slower and slower rates and have as their limit the eternity hand which does not move at all.

    Thus there is no escape from time. And life of God outside time is meaningless.

    In fact, time is an essential attribute of God.
    No time; no God, but the reverse is not true.
    That is to say that there is always time whether there is God or not.

    Finally, we should not forget that 'God' is, also, an ideal. In other words, the idea of 'God' is the model and the blueprint according to which you would certainly construct yourself, if you were given the power to re-design and build yourself from scratch. In this sense, even though God has no basis in reality, as an ideal is absolutely perfect and useful and you should keep Him as a guiding star and blueprint for impoving yourself at all levels.

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    Last edited: Jun 21, 2006
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  3. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member


    You have made some good points. I also feel that the idea of God really answers nothing, the questions are still there waiting to be properly answered.

    Richard Dawkins has said this same thing, only worded differently-

    "Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and leaves it at that. We cannot prove that there is no God, but we can safely conclude the He is very, very improbable indeed."
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  5. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

    Theres a few holes in your logic, however. God did not create himself out of nothing, using the first few phrases of the bible as a source, he simply existed. If god is an absolute creator then he is able to create anything, but first he would have to exist. Since he existed the entire time, he did not create himself, and did not spawn out of nothing.
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  7. shane1985 Registered Senior Member

    If you look at Occam's Razor, it says the simplest solution is the preferred one. IMO, millions of years of chance evolution that someone mysteriously resulted in simple life that slowly evolved into complex humans is much more complicated than the idea of one omnicient Creator. Also, science has suggested up to eleven different space-time dimensions with at least two of these dimensions devoted to time. If we presume at least two time dimensions, who's to say that God does not exist outside of our current linear dimension of time? In this case, the idea that He is the absolute creator is not in jeopardy, as there is no reason to create something that never ceases to exist.
  8. Vienna Registered Senior Member

    An idea or a paradox does not determine falsehood, only possiblilties.
  9. edgar Registered Senior Member

    um first thing, god was always their. human minds cannot comprehend eternity but god always existed.
  10. doom Registered Senior Member

    Well mass/energy are essentially eternal and indestructable,
    and the universe actually started in an ordered state and entropy is the disorder over time:

    I<---time begin---------------------------------time end?I
    big bang(ordered)------>-----disorder-->-----big crunch?

    What happens at time end/crunch?
    well we really cant say that all time,all mass/energy gets destroyed,perhaps its use is to spring back into a big bang again.

    All universes i believe are like spring boards in parallel doing different things on a quantum level and are each eternal in simarlar ways

    From an outward perspective,outside time i would say they just look sort of bouncing imploding and exploding within an instant,from an internal aspect then things are the way they appear to us i.e a long time for us.

    So trying to imagine god?
    ok im gonna get technical on ya,what if i was to say that all these universes actions are actually the neurons in gods brain,in other words the universes in parallel act as a network system that works gods thought process!

    Whats god?
    who says a superior/alien/different being has to be in the same rules as us,perhaps there loads of them,
    who made them? well perhaps what they have is different to us.

    Its all the unknown,and generally is philosophical.

    Perhaps the film matrix does have the right idea,that was a very thought provoking film.
  11. Miguel Registered Member

    People are self-contadictory. Hence people don't exist.

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  12. shane1985 Registered Senior Member

    I think this film is a good way to show what I am saying regarding the extradimensionality of God. If you think of God as the people outside of the matrix, it is easy to see how the world could be created, and still have God outside of it.
  13. Jade Squirrel Impassioned Atheist Registered Senior Member

    Actually, the most current observations from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) with regard to the amount of dark matter and dark energy in the universe indicate that the geometry of the universe is flat, meaning that the universe will continue to expand forever.

    You can get more information at the WMAP web site.
  14. doom Registered Senior Member

    Well if that is true then it goes back to the old idea of an icy cold death to the universe rather than a cataclysmic heat crunch,cos obviously our universe will waste its energy and die,not for a long time though.

    Omega>implies big crunch,omega=1.0 is the cosmological value
    for this,
    it seems that omega 0.35 is dark matter,0.40 of matter,
    visible is only about 0.05,baryonic is overall 0.10

    so there might be more to the whole picture,cos that makes 0.90,thats close but not enough for a big crunch for gravity to collapse everything,but maybe theres something were not seeing.

    Though i have to admit it does look as if the universe is likely to die a horrible slow death instead of an instant one,
    also within 10 to the power 30(1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ) years the proton will decay.

    But before this happens everything gets sucked into black holes
    "eaters" these are eating stuff into a singularity,whats to say the black holes are like the imploding/exploding universe from an outside perspective model i talked about,it does leave behind waste,our dead universe,but i wanna know more about black holes before i decide what i definatly believe as a whole.
  15. Miguel Registered Member

    That isn't true because the entropic capacity of the Universe increases faster than entropy itself. This means that Thermal Uniformity is phisically impossible.
  16. doom Registered Senior Member


    Yeah but itll freeze eventually,just alot slower,your speaking of it perpetually,theres no such thing.

    As i say to get this youll need omega=1
    less than this its the big freeze,more than this its the big crunch,
    but even at omega=1,its not gonna be perpetual and eternal,itll freeze up eventually.
    The stars are still gonna die,your still gonna get proton decay and so on.

    Although this wont be of great concern to us being upwards of 15 billion years away
    as our sun will die in 4 billion years and turn the earth to shit,haha tough break for the poor saps that live in that period.
  17. doom Registered Senior Member

    Also all them black holes are gonna swallow up everything travelling at c(light) cannot escape a black hole,so nor can any electomagnetic spectrum,that includes heat,
    although the black hole does produce energy like a dynamo you could use black holes as a source of energy if we get intergalactic,
    hell if you create a einstien rosen bridge we might be able to go through that and end up in a more hospitable universe,that might be the only way out eventually,then again it might be throwing yourself from the chip pan into the fire.
  18. edgar Registered Senior Member

    you realize why all those are called theories....
  19. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member


    I think you meant there instead of their.

    Maybe the universe always existed? In my mind thats the same idea as God being infinite. I would have to say that both of these concepts are equally hard to comprehend.
  20. Increan Sage Registered Senior Member

    Re: Re: God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

    Wow, I think you just crapped on yourself. He never said he spawed out of nothing just that if he is absolute he can create himself and if he can't do that he is not absolute thats all.
  21. doom Registered Senior Member

    Its also hard to imagine something coming from nothing,like how do you have nothing explode?

    The only reason we can find even the universe comprehendable is the fact we are in it to argue the case and know it exists.

    But i have to admit if i wasnt living in this universe i.e i didnt exist but existed and someone told me about the universe id say
    "nah hows that possible!" ironically.

    As to what edgar said about theories,yes if something was a theory but at least theres good evidence supporting these theories.

    Who said i disbanden the notion of god,clearly you did not read whats been written or youd be able to argue your case.

    You just believe in god without question,thats not good enough,and even IF there is a god it may not match what you believe cos theres been plenty of religions with there own type of god,your so called god has just had good publicity with that overblown god press release they call the bible.

    God in my mind is one of two things:

    a)the creator of the universe but not necessarily anything to do with man or alines or any life whatsoever,call him an outer dimensional genius/scientist

    b) the universe is one of many and makes up an expanding whole structure to what could be gods brain,the universe is essential to god and god is essential to the universe.

    Now both A and B kinda fall into a copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory,if god decides to not observe the universe(A)
    then the universe would dissapear,
    (B) if god dies,the universe dies with him

    Its a kinda "whos observing the observers" situation

    Coarse there might be more to it,there always is it seems.

    What do i mean by gods brain?

    well our time might not be 'its' time,it couldnt be,also what seems big to us is not from a different standpoint.

    See,many people when they try to imagine god they set in there head a picture of some being invisible to the whole universe,or outside it looking in.

    I would say both these are wrong,its not supernatural,i decided on the simple idea that god started out dead unconcious type of higher dimensional matter,its brain formed on its own within time,time of universes and the creation/extermination lead to conciousness of some kind,but not of earth kind,and thats the trigger factor for its growth and potential for creating multi universal mind patterns of universes in an order that could potentially create its growth and intelligence further.

    To what ends i dont know,maybe that automatic.

    Can it(god) control us?
    well no,i mean i have processes in my brain that let me do my thing but i cant see them processes i just know that that grey matter in my head lets me think but im not aware what actually goes on in there,thats why i call it gods brain.
  22. Jade Squirrel Impassioned Atheist Registered Senior Member

    Yes, this is about when protons will start to decay. From about 10^38 to 10^100 years, the only objects remaining will be black holes. Over this period even they will decay until there is nothing left but photons, neutrinos, electrons, and positrons. Sounds kind of boring, but no one will be around to experience the boredom.
  23. Jade Squirrel Impassioned Atheist Registered Senior Member


    Um, some type of panentheism.

    Interesting hypothesis. But what evidence do you have that the universe is part of a structure that can be described as "God's brain"? There is not even any good evidence of other universes, let alone any to indicate that they may be part of some sort of cosmic consciousness. These ideas seem to smack of anthropomorphism, which is one of the reasons I think that theism exists.
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