God Must Exist;

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Jan Ardena, Mar 17, 2011.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    If our whole life, and perception are based on relationships.
    God must exist.

    For something NOT to exist fully, it cannot be percieved by the mind, or exist
    in the memory.

    Hi, just want to see what you philosophical headz think to this;

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    1. To believe God does not exist, or, that there is not enough evidence for his existence, still forms a relationship, at least in the mind, because God has to be percieved to not to exist.

    2. That perception differs ONLY, from the perception of God does exist, in
    the negative sense, as opposed to a positive one.

    3. The only way God can NOT exist is to illiminate all notions of God, Supreme Being, Leader, boss, from the mind.
    By doing so one relinquishes the relationship.

    4. This is not a theistic argument, or a religious one.
    It is more in the realm of an ontological one.

    What do you think?

    thanks
    jan.
     
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  3. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    The idea of God surely exists. But taking the next step and saying that because the idea is there makes it so, that's a leap.
     
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  5. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    So unicorns, FSM and the teapot around Mars also exist?
    What do you mean "perceived"? Conceived of? Or actually "sensed"?
    If the latter please provide evidence that god is sensed by the mind.

    So how does not being "perceived" at all, to not have have come across the belief in god and therefore have no clue about god whatsoever, fit in?

    This stands only if your first premise is true. (And leads me to think that you mean "conceived" rather than "perceived").
    Which I doubt is the case.
     
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  7. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Dywyddyr,

    They exist in that they form images in the mind which serve the purpose of
    showing the non-existence of God.

    Surely the mind does what it does.
    It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not. We
    must then form some kind of a relationship with those images. The relationship we form with the image of God is no more or less real, than the images of our cars.

    How is it possible to ''not have a clue about God'' when your mind has already concieved of it? The notion of ''God does not exist'' is the secondary phase.

    If I say ''God'', what directly occurs in your mind?

    jan.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I grant that it is possible to have an illusory relationship with all manner of conceptions, even to feel physical perceptions as a result of that delusion.
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    The point is, we form a relationship with the idea, which becomes a perception. The question is; are relationships and perceptions real?

    jan.
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    The idea of ''illusory'' is a choice we make after the relationship is forged.

    jan.
     
  11. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Huh?

    More specifically: It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not.

    Incorrect. There are peoples that had no concept at all of god until they were introduced to the idea by outsiders.*

    Not so.
    "God" is a secondary phase - arising as an "explanation" for natural phenomena.

    You're annoyed?

    * I forget the name: maybe Spidergoat can provide a link.
     
  12. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    To someone who believes they are real, they would seem to be. But the real commonly defined as actually existing to any observer, no.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    I could form a relationship based on my belief that I am married to Rupert.

    But to do so would make me delusional because it is not real.

    In other words, to say God must exist and to claim one has formed a relationship with God would be akin to my firmly believing that my husband is Rupert..
     
  14. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Dywyddyr,

    God still exists in the mind.
    To the point where you make a decision as to whether or not he exists.
    That you think he doesn't exist does not eliminate him, it merely describes him as non-existent.

    The ones we discard can be said to not exist as we don't assign anything to them, eventually they become dormant, non-essential, and for all intent and
    purpose, forgotton. Hence we have gone some way to relinquishing our relationship with them.

    You're proving what i'm saying.
    The moment they became aware of God, he existed.

    Okay. Then a relationship has to be formed, in order to percieve the idea that God does not exist. But God still exists in the mind despite that.

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    jan.
     
  15. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    God(s) exists in the mind. True enough.
     
  16. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Which has nothing to so with the existence or otherwise of unicorns etc.

    Which doesn't address my point.

    How so?
    They had no awareness of him before hand: therefore he didn't exist AT ALL in their minds. Therefore they had no belief in him. It's quite simple. They were, by definition, atheists, without having going through hearing about god to reject the idea.

    Untrue: as shown above.

    When someone is angry or frustrated a common comment is "God!". Usually followed by "Why don't you listen?" or some such.
     
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That relationship which is formed in the mind, is no different to forming the
    same type of relationship in your mind, with your husband.

    What is the difference?

    jan.
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Does the mind assign qualities like ''real or unreal'' before the image, perception, therefore relationship, has been firmly implanted?

    jan.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    The difference is that if I actually believed I was married to "Rupert", I would be delusional.. that relationship would be false or based on something entirely false.
     
  20. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    It's quite simple:
    One is an actual relationship with someone who really exists and who participates in that relationship.
    The other is a figment of imagination and the relationship does not exist, nor does the person in question.
    (Yes, in Bells' case Rupert does exist, but very probably not as he exists in her mind).
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Therefore God exists, as much as anything else in the mind, despite
    qualities we assign to it.

    jan.
     
  22. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    "If our whole life, and perception are based on relationships."

    If?
    Is that all you have, relationships.
    Do you never enjoy taking a shit, eating a fine meal or watching a glorious sunset?
    You have my sympathy if not my empathy.

    "For something NOT to exist fully, it cannot be percieved by the mind, or exist in the memory"

    In that case could you buy me a T-rex or introduce me to 7 of 9. You have her number dont you?

    Answers..

    1. I didn't invent god. I would never even have considered such a strange idea if weirdos like you hadn't suggested it to me. Do kids abandoned at birth and raised by wolves (it happens. check the literature) know about their relationship with god. I guess not, until some prick snares them, slaughters their pack mates and subjects them to a philosophical education.

    2. See 1

    3.unless he was never there in the first place. See 1

    4.It's not any sort of argument. it's just theological masturbation. Me? I prefer 7 of 9. She exists because I wank about her. Don't you agree?

    "What do you think?"

    I think your wasting bandwidth and you've made me complicit.

    Thanks for that.
    Dee Cee
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Only for those that think he does.
     

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