Great victory over political correctness and leftist propaganda

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ultron, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    America went through a feminists stage, since the 1960's, and now the pendulum is swinging back toward a masculine stage. Men are more visual and women are more verbal. The rules of PC and gossip, are geared to the ladies. Much of the verbal, being thrown around, was based on makeup, which appeals to those who try to make reality look better. We are all equal, in words, yet many need special privileges to make it happen. This does not look right, but it fools those who only know words.

    Men, using their visual senses, did not see what the words were saying. The words said a good economy, cheaper health care and low unemployment, but this was not seen, even though it sounded good and appealed to the ladies. The feminists could only hear what the words appeared to be saying and because they assume words matter the most. They could not see the signs of the times. Women need the men to help them see, but in the world of words matter too much, men are treated like they are second class bigots for pointing out what they see. Now the pendulum will make visuals more important; wait and see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Citation please. In asking a family member in Florida, first of all Hispanics are not a unified block of voters, south Americans don't necessarily like or agree with Mexicans, post-castro and pre-castro Cubans have some really big differences of opinions, and poor legal immigrants don't necessarily like illegals competing with them.

    Yes yes I been saying this for some time now (though at present count trump is now 300k above Romney Clinton is 3.4 million below obama) and so where was that racist-misogynist turn out?

    So you are delusional then?
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Another thank you to regressive left and PC culture for helping to give us President Trump: http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr

     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The Castro stuff was true in every recent election - no change.
    Poor legal immigrants may not like illegal immigration, but they are very much afraid of Trump's deportation and harassment proposals.
    The extra, over Romney? In the Republican vote column, where the lost Republican vote from the "college educated" and other euphemistic categories went missing.
    There's a lot of that. You are not alone. Neither is Brian Williams and the other excuse mongers on TV.

    You guys are all wrong, is what I am pointing out.
    But George W Bush was a serious threat to the nation, and in fact was a major, almost apocalyptic disaster. Maher was right about him. (He was also right about Romney and McCain, and it's good we never got to see that proved).

    He wasn't "crying wolf", he was seeing wolves and doing his job. He just lost this time, is all - got beat.

    And Maher has almost no influence on the Trump voter, compared with Fox etc. I know Lefties like to think they are important, and anything that happens is a reaction to their awesome influence, but anyone who thinks that the Trump voters were watching Maher's show and reacting against his over the top lefty rhetoric is simply not paying attention to reality. For starters, Maher has been a genuine force in support of the backlash against the college campus PC exacerbations and goofiness. The actual backlash against the college campus PC noise has been led by guys like Maher.

    The bigger picture: This current example of the routine, nonsensical, and often damaging attempts to blame a carefully excluded from power and otherwise all but invisible Left for the latest achievements of the American fascist movement is one of the problems created by the refusal to recognize that Trump is a Republican, a perfectly solid fit in the mainstream Republican Party, a regular and ordinary continuation of Reagan's base and agenda (and even, minus the vulgarity, rhetoric). This Sessions guy he just appointed? He was rejected as a Federal judge in 1986 because Reagan wanted him for the Federal bench. He's been a regular working Republican in Congress for years now. Trump is nothing new. He's Palin with actual sales skills, Romney with a common touch, W from NY instead of Texas and if his mother had died early. He's Reagan if the Alzheimer's had made him potty-mouthed.

    Are you going to allow the Republican Party and the core Republican voter to disown this guy, in advance, even before his Katrina? His Abu Ghraib? The blowup of his Russian mob connections?
    Oh bullshit.

    Here - some video footage for you, of the actual "backlash" during the Obama years: Notice the compete absence of any of that new lefty goof-of-the-day stuff - that's only because their info sources haven't fed those memes to them yet. It has nothing to do with actual lefty behavior, or actual Obama behavior, or any other aspect of reality - nothing at all. Nada.

    And even when they did get around to "left" whatever - trans bathroom panic, Muslims gone wild in Sweden, whatever bubbled up in the tank that week - it was scum on the shit fountain. Apparently you guys have simply forgotten the actual content of the past eight years of Obama backlash - in which the trivialities of stuff like gender neutral pronouns were lost in the roar of backlash to the merest possibility of race-neutral police oversight, gender-neutral abortion regulation, religion-neutral foreign policy, wealth-neutral taxation policy, and the like.

    Especially, at the time, btw: Party-neutral law enforcement, with the crimes of the previous Federal and State administrations looming over everybody like some kind of horrible ghost of error past. Forgot about that, amirite?
    I'm not amnesiac, is your difficulty in finding actual argument. You have forgotten, already, what the media coverage of the Trump campaign was like: remember the billion and a half of free TV time? The running of his speeches in full while other candidates had to buy seconds of quote time? The continual "both sides" Sanders/Trump presentation of all issues, including every single problem with the guy and the Party?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  8. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    365
    Here is a translation so that the thinking person can actually understand what this Alt-Right term really means:

    "Politically correct" - A term to discredit anyone who still believes in the value of civilized and decent debate and discourse. The Radical Right has done a very good job in disparaging such facts-based debate, culminating in the campaign and election of Donald Trump. Once they succeeded in replacing decent debate with hate language they could open the door to pure populism. It's an effective way to make racist or bigoted or Radical Right points of view appear to be mainstream.
     
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  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well, they WON! Look who is president now. Now you can continue snobbishly defining them, or we can start figuring out how to win next time?

    And when did populism become a bad word? Millions of people want a better life, are desperate and will and have just voted for huckster in that desperation, if we had better appeal to populism, like with Bernie, like with Warren, maybe that would not have happened.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Populism is probably the wrong word. Fascism or hucksterism would be more apropos.
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Fascism has lost all meaning, saying that word to people in general just causes them to laugh and think your screaming the sky is falling, losing any credibility or ability to sway them. Hucksterism on the other hand, I like that, but anything that ends in -ism though is generally processed as hyperbole now by most people. I have got much more traction by simply pointing out he is a huckster and conman who presents no viable policies or details what so ever to how he is going to "make america great again".
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    23,487
    Is there a single wingnut meme you have not suckered for?

    "Fascism" is indeed a target of the fascist propagandists, who have a vested interest in getting people to believe it is a meaningless term, and to not do any analysis using it accurately, and never apply it to them at all. But their attempt to associate the term with "screaming the sky is falling" has as yet been only partially successful among the intellectually vulnerable - the targets of their propaganda operation. That is not "people in general", and especially it is not the people who do continue to use the term meaningfully as they have for many years.
    Sure. Any good persuader uses the most persuasive rhetoric, and those folks never had any idea what "fascism" means anyway. So?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    You live in your own little hugbox don't you? Most people, most voters, roll their eyes at the use of that word now. I don't care if that is somehow the product of some fascist conspiracy, and not due to the lefts over use of that word, does not change the fact of the matter that we can't win using that word.

    So?
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So don't campaign using that word - or any other word a regular person doesn't understand. Nobody else does, so you will have plenty of company in your abstinence - as you have all along. Certainly nobody like me has ever used that word when attempting to persuade someone to vote this way or that way. I don't use "socialism" either. Or "liberal". Too abstract.

    Meanwhile, people who are discussing and analyzing stuff find the word almost necessary these days. The rise of American fascism now culminating in the taking of power by a charismatic strongman, a stereotypical cuadillo type, is a remarkable and very significant event. It's kind of dumb to talk all around it with strings of adjectives and circumlocutions. Fascism is a perfectly good word.

    Meanwhile:
    Why the hidden edit, with no marker? The edited out part explained, answered your query.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I just explained to you how normal people understand that word: as hyperbole that renders your argument comical and no longer valid in their mind.

    Oh yes so now you say you don't use that word in arguments, but just above you claim it is what regular people understand, make up your mind!

    In a hugbox it is. But if you want to actually not end up in a real fascist state you better learn how to work the "regular people" and use words they do understand, and fascism is not one of them.

    When I read it that edit was not there because I loaded your reply before you edited it. But yes lets dive into how wrong you are:

    first of all, HEY EVERYONE ICEAURA IS EVIL, PURE EVIL, WE MUST STOP ICEAURA AT ALL COST, yeah not very persuasive.
    second: you seem to imply that fascism is "most persuasive rhetoric" and yet next sentence you state folks have no idea what it actually means, this argument does not make any sense and practically disproves its self!

    Back to my point if you want to persuade the "folks" words like fascist, sexist, misogynist, etc are utterly useless and actually detrimental to your argument, the primary interest of the "folks" in an election are economic improvements for them and politicians that listen and look out for them and not lobbyist, corporatists and the rich, or at the very least don't lie with every breath uttered. You must work all your persuasion through THEIR lenses of economic hardship and political corruption and not your lenses of the rise of American fascism, regardless of how probable that outlook is correct, because if we don't get their votes your outlook will go from probable to guaranteed... and that is how we got the President Trump.
     
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And I pointed out to you that people like me don't use the term in talking to "normal people" - by which I presume you mean the average Trump voter.
    I made no such claims. I claimed the opposite - that I do use the word in arguments in appropriate circumstances, and that "regular people" do not understand it.

    If you quote the part that confused you, I can perhaps straighten you out.
    But the only thing I can do about this is request that you reread:
    That's not stupidity, that's denial. And lying slander, angering insult, etc - which you double down on by actually screaming, in all caps. Remember what was supposed to be the flaw of my alleged approach? Screaming insults, iirc.
    You keep on ascribing to me some idiotic Republican propaganda version of how I and people like me talk to people, and I will keep on estimating your comprehension abilities accordingly.

    But you do clarify a couple of things - among them, a suggestion of what happened to the DNC "ground game" and what that implies for the future of the DNC. If you fairly represent the ground game attitude toward the Left, Sanders supporters, or me and people like me, we have a problem. Have they really adopted the Fox media, alt-right, wingnut framing of the Left, or me and people like me? Then they're doomed.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No I mean people of all kinds, including trump voters, in public, even this forum is not some closed speak-easy where you can blame all the worlds problems on the Aryans without being overheard.

    Ok so this is just some personal belief that racism is at the core of everything, and when I point out that that kind of talk helped Trump, your counter argument is that you don't speak about that in public? I don't care at this point if your public about it or not: it is a stupid belief! Worse you present no solution for your wrong theory on why we lost. I repeat my question again and again: if they are racist how do we win next time? What is your solution for the problem?

    I was demonstrating why your approach is stupid, the fact you can't comprehend that leads me to believe you really huff glue.

    The fact you think this is a product of republican propaganda

    ... so you are delusional?

    Sure because if we continue to do as you do and blame it all on racism we will totally win next time. Bernie platform was fundamentally populace, universal healthcare FOR ALL, pay of college loan debt, FOR ALL, tax the fucking rich, Living wage FOR ALL, Dealing with political corruption, these are issues that even many on the right can agree on, I know, I have met them, we would have got their votes with Bernie. Now if next time you think we should just hammer on about racism because the alt-right "wingnuts" don't like it, well then yes doomed is the proper word.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, I don't. Explicitly and obviously and in detail, don't. I think its use for propaganda by Republican media conmen has nothing to do with me, or anyone like me.

    And you don't get credit for innocence any more - this is the third or fourth consecutive post of yours like that. That level of incomprehension is obviously a pretense, a rhetorical stance, and as such dishonest.
    And there's an even uglier little face peeking out from behind your fan dance:
    Aryans? Oh Lord this is headed for the mud in a hurry.

    Look - you were talking about Trump voters as the normal people I and people like me supposedly alienated by screaming at them that they were fascists and racists. We didn't do that. I don't talk to "normal people" like that, and so obviously neither do people like me. Those are analytical and descriptive terms, and I use them for discussion and analysis, which I don't burden people with in daily conversation. As would be obvious to anyone paying attention and arguing in good faith, btw.
    What I pointed out is that your contention that the Left, I, or anyone like me ever - even once - screamed those names at working class white folks, thereby alienating them, was a bizarre fantasy you picked up (possibly secondhand) from Republican agitprop.
    No, it isn't. The average or ordinary Trump voter is in fact racist, to an easily noticeable degree recorded in dozens of polls and demonstrated in hundreds of interviews as well as voting patterns, and the Trump campaign as well as the Republican Party of which it is a solid, well-fitting, mainstream part is ideologically fascistic. If you want to win the next election, you will have to deal with that - it's ground level reality.
    You were screaming nonsense in all caps, that had nothing to do with my approach to anything. I am not answerable for your fantasies about the Left, me, or people like me, but I wish you would not get them from Republican agitprop - which is the only primary source.
    I don't "blame it all" on anything, much less racism, and you have no excuse for posting that I do.

    Meanwhile, this "we" business is getting shakier by the minute - "we" don't buy into wingnut excuse memes of screaming Lefties imposing themselves on rural working class white voters via long distance video, and alienating them thereby. "We" have better sense.

    Go jerk yourself around, how about, and leave me alone. I've been posting in good faith here.

    And if you are actually engaged in the Democratic Party, and you do succeed in purging the Democratic Party of its Left, me, and people like me, don't be too surprised when you find out you still have all those videos of screaming namecallers from somewhere, still labeled "Left" and "Democrat" interchangeably, presented as representative to rural working class whites by the Republican campaign media operations, along with the videos of black people being violent and unreasonable and angry and criminal, and Muslims cutting off people's heads in between rapes of little girls, and aborted babies in dumpsters or selfish "liberals" talking about pricing their body parts. It's not that they are targeting uneducated fundies and racists with lies and deceptions, you understand - it's all about jobs. Somehow.

    And the stuff actually about jobs, about the economics, about the taxes, about the banks and the debt and the college and the wages? You will have purged that with Left, me, and the people like me - the bulk of the support for Sanders. Who else was talking about it, on the Democratic Party side?
     
  20. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    You're right and your wrong (ps hey everuone - not posted in a looooong time)

    The reason Trump won and Hillary lost is that Trump had a narrative and Hillary didn't

    Hillary had no discernable narrative of "political correctness - pro immigration - gender - positive discrimination - false racist accusations - LGBTI - propaganda"

    She really didn't

    The reason that was tacked onto her was precisely because she really didn't have anything to say - so it just kind of just came with the territory of the centre right who pretend to be centre left and have nothing of substance to say - it was an assumed bias - but in fairness she probably had it coming to her for the lack of any meaningful policy positions towards what should have been her base, and what they had been crying out for for 20 ish years

    Trump on the other hand did have a narrative of the plight of the american working class.

    It was bullshit - and we know it's bullshit

    There is no possible way for him to bring back the 30 dollar an hour manufacturing jobs from overseas in a world of globalized capital - globalized capital will tell him to go fuck himself.

    He won't even be able to bring back the 15 dollar an hour jobs in call centres those guys took when the auto plants shut ....... that subsequently went to India ...... because its still a world of globalized capital - and globalized capital will tell him to fuck himself

    Nevertheless it was bullshit that people really wanted someone to say on their behalf

    The great failing of the centre right who pretend to be centre left over the last 10-20 years is their failure to take any responsibility for thier culpability in fucking over the working class - THAT'S why they're getting the middle finger, and deservedly so - political correctness is extraneous
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    34,342
    Welcome home, friend. Been a while, indeed.

    I don't specifically disagree, but I think there's a catch in all that.

    What if the white working class voted for their fucking over?

    Because to some degree, they did.

    Nor is this any sort of new idea. Nor was it new in 2010 when Tom Tomorrow called out the "Tea and Crumpets Party"↱:

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  22. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose it's not so much the fact that working class voted against their interests, that's like trying to use a constant to explain a change, any one of the shitshow of primary candidates could have done that for them.
    It's the manner in which it happened.

    I've been channelling ( plagiarising ) my latest hetero man-crush, Mark Blyth - he's surprisingly lucid for an Ivy League Professor of political economics.
    Might have something to do with him being Scottish

     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It isn't that much of a change - although matters of degree do lead to phase shifts, true, that was also the fear under Reagan, under W. The fear remains the same.

    People seem to have forgotten what Reagan and W administrations were actually like. That seems arranged, to me - that amnesia.
     

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