"Hello, is there anybody in there...?" A call to pagans, pantheists, and assorted...

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tht1Gy!, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    There is no such thing as an indo-european culture. What there is is an indo-european language group.

    And I should say that I'm not against the adoption of eastern ideals into a western tradition...only that its dishonest to say these ideals are part of some forgotten druid cult in celtic england.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2007
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  3. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    And isnt the same true for most of the original wiccan writers???
     
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  5. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Of course there's not a Proto-Indo-European culture anymore. It disappeared when it branched off into several other Indo-European cultures and civilisations a few thousand years ago. This is attested by the similarities between Hinduism, ancient Celtic religion, and various other Indo-European religions.

    For more information, these links might be useful:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_society
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion


    Keep in mind, the existence of a Proto-Indo-European society and religion does not in any way prove Margaret Murray's goofy ideas on a witch-cult. What is does do, is justify the integration of Hindu mysticism and Western thought.

    Not necessarily. That depends on which ones you are talking about, and the extent to which they believed the ideas of other early writers on the subject. Keep in mind, Margaret Murray was not a Wiccan. However, her writings influenced the early development of the religion. On the other hand, modern Wicca is vastly different from proto-Gardnerian Wicca, so Murray's influence is, thankfully, dwindling.
     
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  7. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    To prove a common origin between Vedic religion and Celtic religion there would have to be a celtic literature with distinct similarities to the Vedas.

    I see none in your links, where a few correlations are regarded as mere conjecture, probably the result of what they refer to as 'parallel evolution'.

    Can you point out something in a truly ancient pre-christian Celtic text that demonstrates your point?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2007
  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Ive read that Crowley wasnt a Wiccan either and yet Gardner apparently lifted whole passages from Crowley for his own writings.

    Who in your opinion IS a truthful writer in the Wicca genre?
     
  9. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Gardner himself, Doreen Valiente, and Raymond Buckland are all good sources if you're looking into Traditional Wicca.
    On modern Wicca's currents, there's not clear single writer that can encapsulate everything, except perhaps Scott Cunningham, who wrote Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner.
     
  10. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Carcano, I wonder what your beef/point is. It seems all you want to do is tear down ideas. You have yet to offer any of your own. Offer something intelligent, and not trashing, boy 'O. Put up or SiTFU.


    I'm gonna have to disagree with you Hapsburg, on Silver Ravenwolf being of no value. While at a festival I had an opportunity to meet her at a workshop she taught. While I think that she mishmashes ideas into a 'not entirely bland' aggregate, and her books do have a 'pop-glam'-ness to them, she is useful in that her books are non-threatening to someone who is looking for an alternative to christianity, yet not ready to look the dark goddess in the face.
    She isn't lying when she talks of angels, just goofy.

    Liar, you think she's a liar?

    Cuningham IS a good choice. Also Amber K.'s True Magic is an excellent primer.

    On a side note, what makes you think I'm a "she"?
     
  11. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    'Kay. We can agree to disagree. We'd get nowhere fast if we didn't.

    In some ways. I think she's more a twat than anything else. She tries to play the "victim" card too much, and a lot of the things she uses to back up her ideas are based on the outdated claims by Margaret Murray. Some of her major claims simply aren't relevant to modern Wicca, in my opinion.

    I thought you referred to yourself before as a female?
    Anyway- I dunno. You just seem like a chick to me.

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    Then again, most of the girls I hang out with are tomboys, so that might be affecting my perception...

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2007
  12. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Do you feel better now...that youve said something spectacularly meaningless?

    Didnt you already admit to making all this Wicca stuff up as you go along?

    In that case, what does it matter whether its torn down or propped up?

    Youve freely admitted that intellectual integrity means absolutely nothing to you.

    So sit back
    Relax into your fantasy world
    And be at peace

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  13. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Tht1gy, you're more of hurting your cause than helping it.

    I think that we can have a civil discussion about neopaganism here, Wicca in particular, without resorting to slurs or insults, eh?
     
  14. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Probably cuz I said I like Starhawk. I would be curious to hear Starhawk's opinion of Silver

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    I do agree w/this.


    Yeah, I'm done with being baited.

    I haven't read Ravenwolf extensively; I went to a workshop she taught and, well, like when you see live music you get excited and buy the cd. But when you get home and put the cd on and say "But it sounded so cool live...", Her book, Silver's, just seemed - oh "coffee table" or "fluffy bunny witch" in a word: innocuous
     
  15. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah. That's why I don't like her stuff as much as, say, Cunningham. She's very fluffy-bunny about it all, and she doesn't seem to take it seriously, whereas Cunningham is honest, straightforward, and is actually serious about getting the right information out there, and in following his beliefs.
    Or, was, before he died. But you get my point.

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    Anyway...discussion point...
    What about other, less well-known neopagan faiths? Such as Asatru or Neodruidry, or Kemeticism?
    I find those to be very interesting, because they're more along the lines of reconstructionism, or close to it. They're, to me, closer to the original religions, but because of that, they can be a bit outdated. What do ya'll think?
     
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Well any spiritual tradition is supposed to be based on universal/eternal truths, so if it seems outdated it probably had no value to begin with.

    Either that or one's own ideals are based on transitory fads, relative to which any eternal truth will always seem outdated.

    But in the case of celtic druid lore we have no idea because they left no writings...herefore any speculation on whatever eternal truths they beheld is precisely just that.
     
  17. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    That's a bit more what I meant. They're a bit outdated to me because some of them, such as the Asatru Folk Assembly, or Kemetic Orthodoxy, don't try to reconcile ancient paganism with modern knowledge. Other reconstructionists do a better job at reconciling with the modern world, like some Roman reconstructionist pagans (such as my friend Eric), and Celtic reconstructionists.

    I'm not saying that they never had a part of the truth to begin with; I just think that some of their practices and ideals are a little bit anachronistic. The aim of neopaganism is, generally, to reconcile ancient ideas with modern ideals.
     
  18. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Having met her, I'd have to say "she takes it seriously; she's just a fluffy bunny person" (I realize that's not a resounding endorsement

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    Actually, as to Cunningham; he doesn't really speak to me, as it were, tho I think he's good.
    I was a 'student of comparative religion' until I read Starhawk's "Dreaming the Dark" Blew my doors off!
    Took me two times to get through it tho.
    First time I got about a third of the way through and something in her feminism just "torqued" me off.
    Then I picked it up about a year later, and just read right through it; saying "I wonder what pissed me off the first time?".

    She has a book "The Spiral Dance" that is a good resource, if a little ponderous, and lacking in 'the god-male' but she does admit this.

    Another good book is "Full Contact Magick" Kerr Cuhulain. Very much 'a male perspective'.

    The only problem I have with Asatru types, while some cool stuff*, is, as you suggest, their inability to see that, really, we're just making some of this stuff up, based on our studies and our personal connection to the sublime/spirit/divine; whatever one calls one's god/dess, of course.

    *Edred Thorsson (I might be wrong on the spelling. I have the book, but as I am layed up with a broken metatarsal, confirmation can wait) has a couple of cool books; "Futhark" being one of them.
     
  19. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah...Starhawk and some other Dianics can be a bit extreme in their feminism. I respect her, and I respect her contributions to modern Wiccan philosophy, but Dianics frequently throw away the masculine aspect of Wiccan mythology, and they neglect the male/female dualist nature of Wiccan philosophical thought. They are, inadvertently, being every bit as sexist as they claim society is.

    And, I agree about the Asatru, as well as other reconstructionists. This is why I respect neodruids more than Celtic Reconstructionist Pagans. Firstly, they make no pretensions about being a continuation of an ancient religion, and recognise that they are neo-pagans and that ancient paganism is generally outdated; secondly, they recognise that the evidence and knowledge we have on ancient pagan practices are scarce and fractured, and because of this they cannot be reconstructed and reproduced with much accuracy, and definitely not to the degree necessary to practice the religion as their ancestors did.

    But, you have to admire the Reconstructionists' spunk. They got balls, trying to rebuild their ancestors' ways. They just don't realise that it's a bit outmoded.

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
  20. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Celtic Reconstructionist Pagans-Please define.

    It seems I read somewhere in her (Starhawk) writings about realizing having thrown the baby out with the bath water. Something about a necessary step to adjusting the power structures, but I think she has/had begun to soften on this, or acknowledge that it was a step that taken and now needed to be moved past. (Maybe i just imagined she softened

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  21. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Wiki has a fine article that discusses it in good detail.
    Pretty much, Celtic Neopaganism can be split into 3 path: Neodruidry, which includes organisation likes the OBOD and Ar nDraiocht Fein; Syncretic, which takes a lot of ideas from the New Age movement and modern Wicca, like the Reformed Druids of North America and Celtic-Wicca (not the Witta tradition, which is a crappy myth); and Celtic Reconstructionists. Celtic Reconstructionist Pagans are Celtic neopagans that try to return to the older ways. The problem with this is, the specifics of the ancient Celtic ways are lost to history.

    Well, she might have. I don't know; I haven't been up to date on her latest stuff.
     
  22. BlueMoose Guest

    After I did light candles to memory of love ones in our Christian cemetery I went to light up candle to our ancient God of Forest - Tapio, sacrified waste parts of my meat-stew and pour some beer to ground. Then I lighted up a joint and did drink rest of my beer, listening the wind whispering in trees. That was first for me, but not the last one. I´m Evangelist Lutherian wanna be "pagan" LOL

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  23. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Sounds like a good start to me. :thumbsup:
     

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