"Hello, is there anybody in there...?" A call to pagans, pantheists, and assorted...

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tht1Gy!, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    And on that note:
    A couple days ago, I took it upon myself to take a self-dedication rite. I'm firmly putting myself in the definition of a solitary practitioner.

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    One of my favourite things about Wicca is that it's very tolerant of heterodox beliefs. It doesn't claim to be the right and only path for everone; in fact, quite the opposite, it claims that all religions and philosophies have some bit of truth to them, and it's the right one for someone who chooses it. And, well, I choose to be a part of it.

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  3. Tht1Gy! Life, The universe, and e... Registered Senior Member

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    Cool. Welcome and Blessed Be.
    Hey, I went to that link and left a post, FYI.
    There are a lot of good books out there. I'll post some titles and authors here soon.
     
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  5. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    I saw.
    For future reference, the person that first responded is a she, and she is my ex-girlfriend. Who I am, for the most part, still good friends with.
    The information she is going on is based on her and I's friend, Crystal, who is also a solitary-practising Wiccan. What she fails to understand, however, is that no single person can fully define what Wicca and Paganism is, because it such a broad religion, and that Crystal isn't always right in what she says and thinks.

    Aye. There's a Pagan bookstore downtown, and even closer to my house is this bookstore with a large "occult" section.
     
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  7. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Bump. Alright, so, we should have a topic of discussion.

    Let's go with...how does one define the terms: Paganism, Magic, Wicca, and Witchcraft?
    I'll reserve my answer until after I hear a couple opinions.

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  8. ang2223 Registered Member

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    Paganism... any earth based religion
    Magic as it pertains to religion i would say anyone using the element s of the earth... to obtain a driven or direct purpose
    Wicca a Pagan sub religion with many branches
    witchcraft.... not so clear on this one... but hey 4 out of 5 tisn't bad
     
  9. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    To me, witchcraft is a spiritual or religious practice ranging from simple herbalism to complex ritual and spellwork. I think the best way to define it is, "a form of practical, utilitarian magic".

    I agree with you on the others points entirely. No conflict with those.

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  10. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    I would say that in general with these belief systems there are a rather large set of entities and life forms one can communicate with and work symbiotically with: plants, animals, spirits etc.
     
  11. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Of course. Particularly so with plants and other organic substances, like incense.
    Being the embodiment and physical manifestation of the divine, organic substances can thus be considered sacred, and their use, whether as oils or burned or simply placed, can help set the atmosphere in which magic and spellwork can be more easily performed, and in which one can work with the divine.

    I say "work with" because I don't see the ideal personal relationship with the gods as constantly worshipping them or as submission to them as a Abrahamist would with their deity. I see it as two beings meeting as equals to work towards a common purpose with equal force of will. Thence cometh magic, witchcraft, and all things between.
    Honour and venerate them, yes, but blind submission is disgraceful to one's self, and I'm sure even a god would not respect that of a follower.
    At the same time, the gods should not be called upon for petty things, nor should their grace or power be abused in an invocation. I hear all too often of fluff bunny types who say they "use" a deity for a spell or something like that. Using them, like they were a toy or something. An annoying and arrogant way to look at things, in my opinion.

    The best way, I think, is a midpoint that carries the practitioner as an equal partner in working magic, where one respects oneself enough to not fall before the gods with total reverence, and where one respects the gods enough to not abuse their graces or insult them. Balance is a powerful thing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  12. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    That's all what I was getting at with 'symbiotically'.
     
  13. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    I know. I was just further expanding on my point.

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  14. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Alright, so, raising this thread from the dead, and asking another question for discussion:
    As a pagan or neopagan- what is your view of deity? Particularly, if you are Wiccan, how do you view the God and Goddess?

    Again, I'll give my opinion after a few others'.

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  15. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    I am a non-personal pantheist philosophically, an indescript European pagan for romantic reasons.

    As for my view of deity: God = existence with the important qualities of infinity, eternity, omnipresence, et ctera. The divines I will not comment on, save that I am lead to suggest their ability to inspire the romantic side of my nature. That is to say, I shall not lead a defense against their existence philosophically, nor their non-existence, but if I must I will comment further if you have specific questions.

    But I am not a Wiccan. Wiccans are, no offense, but the most homogenous group new age imbeciles and far leftists I have ever met.

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    It is telling that you're a Socialist, Hapsburg, but again, no offense.

    ALso, fuck you for thread necromancy. I'll stab you with your own athame then strangle you before a statue of Mars, Caesar style.
     
  16. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    Hey, didn't bother to read through all the postings in this discussion, but I had to let you know I'm right there with you. I think of myself as a witch, but I also think of the God and Goddess as archetypes. I'm more about affecting the here and now then worrying about where I go when I die, but I do believe in the threefold law. Karma is a bitch.
     
  17. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Jessiej920:

    Why would the universe respond thrice as powerfully?

    THis seems to be a plucked out of nowhere belief of Wicca that I have never understood even remotely the religious and philosophical reasons for.

    Why not simply an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth? This is the traditional view of karma even in the East.
     
  18. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    I guess I see it more symbolically. What goes around comes around, good and bad comes in tens and threes, you get what you give, etc. I don't know if the universe responds thrice as powerfully, but I do believe in the concept. An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth works just as well. The power of numbers has been around forever, so I'm not sure of the specific symbolic power of three, except that even in society today it's an important number in relation to a lot of things. The Native Americans had certain numbers that were constantly reoccuring in their mythology that differed based on tribes...there were 4 brothers...four nights passed...etc. It's the idea behind the law that is important to me.
     
  19. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    jessiej960:

    Oh, so it is a numerological thing for you, then? Okay.

    I can dig that to an extent.

    Although isn't three the number of "perfection"?
     
  20. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    I wouldn't say it's necessarily a numerological thing for me, it's the idea that, for example, if you work black magic or do evil deeds, karma (or what you may call it) will always find its way back to you in a much stronger force. It's the idea that if your will and intent is strong, then what comes back to you will be even stronger and knock you on your ass so to speak.

    I don't know if the number three is the true number of perfection, but it does seem to play an extremely important role in mythology as well as society today. If you think about say, the Triangle, considered to be a solid, substantial geometric shape; you can find the triangle every where in mythology along with the symbolic power of three; Birth, Life, Death; Maiden, Mother, Crone; Body, Mind, Spirt; Waxing, Full, Waning; Past, Present, Future; Subject, Predicate, Copula; Mineral, Vegetable, Animal etc.

    Many ancient buildings were based on the triangle such as the pyramids and the Egyptians worshipped Orion who has a three star belt. The celtic Triquetra knot is a symbol of power and many other ancient cultures found significance in the number three. The Holy Trinity; Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The celtics were especially fond of the number three; Oak, Ash, Thorn were the fairy Triad of trees. The Brigids had three faces. The Greeks recognized three Fates, three Graces, three Gorgons, three Furies. King Solomon's seal is two interlaced triangles, now the most widely recognized symbol for the Jewish faith. Even people who have claimed to be abducted by aliens and taken into UFO's have reported being marked with triangle symbols.

    So yes I believe in the threefold law, not necessarily because of the number itself, but one can't deny the significance the number has held throughout history. So while I'm not picky about the number of times Karma will come to kick you in the ass, I do believe in it and I have to disagree with you just a little bit (

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    )when you say that the threefold law is just some fluffy Wiccan idea pulled out of no where. If you believe in Karma and also recognize the power the number three has held for a variety of cultures throughout history, then why not believe that the universe will repsond thrice as powerfully? Still, it's the idea behind the law that matters. Do unto others and all that. The Golden Rule. I do believe that you reap what you sow.

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  21. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Jessiej90:

    What would amplify it to make it stronger? Shouldn't we expect perfect equality? When I punch a wall, the wall does not respond by a force three times more against me.

    I can see where you are going from. The belief is not as ridiculous if it is based explicitly on karma joined with the significance of three. That being said, the relationship seems lopsided and strained, which is contrary to the other positions of sacredness ascribed to three.

    Three is certainly a powerful number and principle. But it seems odd to place it on something that seems better suitd to "one", I.E. "one to one correspondence".
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
  22. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    Haha, no, I see where you are coming from, but let's say, for example, you punch that wall so hard that it caves in on you and crushes you. The wall obviously then hurt you more then you did it, especially since the wall can't feel and doesn't give a damn. The wall had no conscious intent of caving in on you, but because you damaged it, the force came back at you much stronger anyway. I guess that's where I'm going with will and intent. The stronger the force you send out to damage something, the more likely it can come back at you with an even stronger force because you have no control over it. I think the moral behind the threefold law is different then just eye for an eye. Eye for an eye implies that because someone hurt you, it gives you the right to hurt them back, which just perpetuates a cycle of negativity and/or violence. The threefold law insinuates that if you hurt someone then you will hurt even more when it comes back to you, effectively trying to discourage people from behaving in a harmful or violent way. You are right when you say that the number three is not necessarily significant or relevant to the threefold law when looking at the power of other triad symbolisms, but it's what it implies that is important.
     
  23. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Hapsburg:

    Paganism: A term generally applied to the indigeneous polytheistic beliefs of the European peoples and sometimes those of the Near East. It is not a religion, but a religious category. Neo-paganism includes such religions as Wicca and its offshoots, but has only a tenuous connection to "paganism" proper.

    Magic: The craft of attaining one's ends, either practical (thaumaturgical) or spiritual (theurgical), via indirect means through practices such as crafting amulets, enchanting objects, invoking and evoking spirits of various natures, working with sigils, singing incantations, et cetera, et cetera.

    Wicca: A dithestic modern fertility religion created by Gerald Gardner in the mid half of the 20th century. Amusingly, despite the female preponderance, Wicca means male sorcerer in Old English.

    Witchcraft: A vaguely defined magical practice, specifically of a folk magical nature.
     

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