Hello Obamacare, Goodbye Full Time Job

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Again, 80 years ago we also had a healthcare crisis in America - it was too cheap! The government fixed that problem alright.


    If we had a free-market in healthcare, the price for treatment would be extremely cheap and the service would be excellent. Oh well, instead we're going to try to go the route of Universal Healthcare where the well paid buy private and go to private hospitals and reasonable health service and the poor and less fortunate act as testing meat in the public hospitals as surgeons cut their teeth on them as they work their way out of Public Healthcare and into Private Healthcare.

    If we're really lucky they'll Publictize Pharmaceuticals too. Oh, Joy! Oh, Joy!

    You won't see the Obama's OR the Mitten's sending their family to Public Hospital - hell no. Much like Public School, their kids go to Private.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    that's a load of crap


    right because everything about previous free market system says the system favors cheap and high quality oh what a free market ensures high prices and low quality.
    you really don't understand the wealthy do you? its not about private being better than public. its about that status to be able to pay the higher prices of private services

    why not most of it is based of government based research anyway

    um most people go to public hositpitals even the president. that just your prejudice showing and nothing factual.
    or you know it could be the security concerns.
     
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    yea its horrible mad, so heres a solution GET EMPLOYERS OUT OF HEALTH CARE. Make a universal goverment payer system like everyother developed country in the world and you wont have a problem.
     
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  7. X-Man2 We're under no illusions. Registered Senior Member

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    #1, I guess thats to simple huh.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    We could bring back those happy days! Eliminate antibiotics, transplant surgery, oncologic treatment, diabetes medication, preterm neonatal care and dialysis. End treatment of genetically based disease. Get rid of the polio vaccine. Forget hormone replacement therapy. If you have a dental cavity? Pull the tooth; problem solved.

    Sure, you'll die sooner after living a far more miserable life, but think how much you'll save on healthcare.
     
  9. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    (Ah, good ole billvon: you are like the person who shakes someone out of a bad dream and tells them everything is OK.)

    Oh, the good ole days. Indeed. And before polio was a plague or two, so you could save even more money by dispensing with any antiseptic procedures. Let the tongs used to pull your tooth be the same ones used on the guy before you, who is carrying some highly infectious disease. Dispense with medical malpractice (i.e. Republican "tort reform") and let good ole Doc save a few bucks by not having to put it in the sterilizer. Your fingers and toes may start falling off, but think of the great Utopian life we'll all be living in the Republican mode, finally freed from the shackles of invasive Guvvamint regulation, which, according to Romney, is killing small businesses (like startup medical practices that have to buy worthless junk like sterilizers). Of course abortion would be illegal, so obviously there would be no back alley solutions. No, everything would be just fine. All the babies would get born that the Lord means to see born, and the rest would be taken back since that's part of the Divine Plan. Just go back to midwives, or pop the kid out yourself and do away with all the wasted expense. If you live, and if the kid lives, you'll have a few more bucks to send him to summer camp where everyone will be singing Kumbiyah and asking God to bless Romney and Ryan and to continue to help us to cut corners so we can get out of this recession which is nothing short of a Hell on Earth.
     
  10. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    1,516
    Nothing that can't be cured with some leaches and a sharp saw. Regression for the win!
     
  11. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Even that won't cure the right wing but jobs fear of everything that works and makes society a better place
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    If you're going to worship the State, you may want to at least try and become one of it's priests. I mean, there's good money, real good money, working for the 'good of the Public'.

    The people I know who buy private health-cover are middle class not 'the rich'. The rich I know would probably take the cheapest option as it's in their nature to be cheap - except when it comes to private school, then again, most of those people are middle class public employee's. No shit. Of the people I know who send their kids to private school and have private insurance - are all public employees. They're really the only people who can afford those luxuries.

    Oh, and Healthcare was CHEAP 80 years ago. Open a book, do some research.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You're not making any sense.

    ALL of those things would still be invented and discovered in a free-market. Only we'd have more, better and cheaper.
     
  14. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    funny coming from the guy whose ideology has been likened to religion. I don't worship the state. I just understand unlike you that the free market has its flaws and the state does somethings better than the free market.

    I'd like to know where the fuck that is because I live in an area where the sequence of towns median income ranges from 2.5 to 3.5 times the median income of the country. the spending habits you speak of don't exist there.

    first off your probably using an absolute rather than a relative comparisan. also I do believe healthcare was cheaper but not because of the free market because well the free market lends itself to the highest priced and the lowest quality.
     
  15. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    your begging the question. you have zero evidence nor can you have evidence for that. the only reason you think it would be better, cheaper, and more abundent is because the libertarian ideology says so. the free market simply wouldn't have the money for the scale of the research needed. there is a reason why almost all major advances now are a product of some form government funded research is because only governments have the money to fund such things.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I already provided an early thread on this very topic.

    Healthcare was cheap because ANYONE was allowed to practice medicine. This meant there was a LOT of competition. Further, Citizens formed private organizations (generally around ethnicity - but not always) and these organizations hired medical doctors - which meant, with fierce competition, the customer is KING. That's not the case any longer. The medical doctors formed the AMA (which is well within their right to do so) and then did something horrid - they started lobbying the US Government to restrict who could and could not practice by making it so that only a 'State Licensed' doctor could practice... guess who determines who gets a licence? Yeah, the AMA.

    Classic case of the wolf watching the hen house. Now with a medical 'tradition' firmly propagandized and normalized into the minds of Americans they can't seem to figure out it's the LOSS of the free-market that has destroyed medical care. So, they go to the government looking for help. But instead of asking for a return to the free-market - they go the route of force. Not against the doctors, but against .... EMPLOYERS?!?!

    See how this goes?

    So, then what? Oh, now the employers say, OK, then we're not going to hire fulltime - which f*cks over the worker!

    AND onward we sink....




    So YES, if we had remained with a free-market healthcare system we'd have Samsung Galaxy III supercomputer pocket-sized MRI machines, life extension drugs, have cured cancer and be living extremely well with extremely cheap healthcare. Instead we have surgeons driving convertible Ferrari's.

    Laser eye surgery is an excellent example of how, when the government DOESN'T pay for something - the price goes way the f*ck down and the quality way the f*ck up. It's the one surgery Americans were actually going to Canada and paying out of pocket to have done a few years back!


    The free-market does EVERYTHING better because voluntarism is ALWAYS better than force. It really is that simple. When you say 'Government does this better'. What you're really saying is FORCE is better than VOLUNTARY. That's just not true.

    Free-market, property rights, law... that's all we had and it made us the most prosperous nation in the history of humanity. It's what we need to return to if ever want that prosperity back.
    First step boys and girls, end income tax and the federal reserve.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you mean the one where you blatently plagerized information yeah I remember that one. and the own that shows it wasn't the government that forced the prices up but the faternal societies them selves.

    yeah thats a great idea just anyone to be able to stick there hands in my chest cavity.
    which isn't always a good thing
    actually what the faternal societies did is what medicare does. groups people together to bargain as one.
    true the docs got tired of living on scraps. its part of the problem when collective bargaining happens. it does to well.
    which isn't statism but corporatism. people who use the government to rig markets in their favor. you know what libertarians will ensure happens.
    oh gosh the horror of people with medical understand deciding if someone knows enough to stick their hands in someone's chest cavity

    not really? you don't really understand what that phrase means do you?
    well you know except it wasn't. it never stopped being a free market they just prevented people from bargaining collectively for prices.
    there is nor force i n the real terms. I know you libertarians have your own definition but you know what I'm not obligated to follow it. and people are going to go for the employer route because people like refuse to let a universal health care system so we could have cheap, high quality, easy to access health care.

    employers have always blamed others for screwing over their employees. its still the employers fault.




    no we wouldn't. we have even worse healcare for the masses and slightly worse than the current high level for the rich. not to mention their would be a focus on treatments rather than cures.

    ?????????????? so your claim of the perfection of the free market is social democratism??? um canada has a very successful universal health care system. and canadians love it.


    well except their is a whole lot of force in a pure free market you just feel its justified.
    only for a libertarian idealologue like your self. most people get the real world is messy and complicated.
    no what we are saying is that when it comes to public goods and things with extreme amounts of externalities the public sector does better.
    well when you use your strawman yes thankfully that's not the real choice.

    Um do you know anything of american history. it wasn't until we got as far away as we did from a pure free market when we were the most prosperous.
    no and no that's you might have the wealth and economic power to avoid company towns but most don't. you might not have learned the lessons of history but I have. just because you want to repeat the mistakes of the past doesn't me the rest of have to. libertarianism doesn't work and the free market is a myth.







    and just for shits and giggles a quote from the ulitmate source of your crap thread.




    this was from an article by the Free Nation Foundation a libertarian( which in my mind is all the reason we need to ignore it. the libertarian movement doesn't exactly have a good track record when it comes to the truth and facts but hey make up your own mind) by a Roderick T. Long



    interestingly enough it had the same title as your other thread. imagine that.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, I plagiarized AND linked?

    Yeah.... right.
    1 in 20 physicians are incompetent. 1 in 75 should be immediate barred as they're actually killing people.

    That's a government statistic by the way.
    It's not the same.


    That's actually a market, it reaches an equilibrium.

    By this reasoning EVERYTHING should be licensed so as to keep prices high. That is INSANE.
    ... and worse, it's immoral.

    With sound money a market is created and an equilibrium is eventually reached.

    Try and remember in a volentary society you only make a trade when you're happy with the trade. Libertarianism IS society. The State is a return to the jungle where brute force is supreme. In a Libertarian society you must work FOR you customer - free trade encourages peace and stability and ... trade and prosperity.

    State force leads to hell on earth.

    which go together like hand in glove.

    The aristocracy made this argument for 1000 years - and they were wrong.

    Just because you have a free market doesn't mean you can't pay for advice. It also doesn't mean you can't have qualifications. Just the opposite. You would probably find a higher quality of certification as Universities would have to compete and would be reluctant to let incompetent MDs leave with their stamp of approval.

    BUT it would be up to the Citizen to decide for themselves... you know, like.. *gasp* adults.

    We actually had Universal healthcare before. It cost about $10 a month.

    Both parties have to agree.... I see no reason why the government needs to stand between them.

    In a free market it would be just like your smart phone - affordable by even the poorest and excellent value for money.

    It's a god damn super computer in your pocket that can access the entire freaken world and make a video call for FREE for Christ's sake! Jesus - that ONLY happens in the free market!

    So does KSA. When you sit atop a bunch of resources life can appear to work pretty well. The truth is - someone has to create the products and that requires capitalism and free markets are the best are distributing that capital.

    Even from an Ethic's viewpoint, volunteerism is moral. Force is immoral.
    So, if the system is complicated - you must default to moral.

    We can agree to disagree.

    Yes, they were wrong to do so.

    This is what happens when you try to use force to fight force. Someone wins, and we lose.



    But, you needn't worry, everyone is on YOUR side. So, you should be happy. Libertarians make up 0.4% of the electorate. A TINY fraction. Democrats on the other hand and Progressives are well over 50% and when it comes to specific issues like public school or supporting public unions or requiring certification to offer your service as a physician ... you're looking at 80-90% of America. So, if you look around and notice you don't like things, do not blame Libertarians, don't even blame the GOP (they side with DEM 70-90% of the time except on a few wedge issues like being gay or abortion which, frankly, are just there to make them appear like they really are two different parties - when in reality they're both the same party of crooks).

    Lucky you, you have 99.6% of America on your side.

    So, you're in the driver's seat - let's see where you take our Nation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This makes no sense. You seem to think the general public is to stupid to demand a quality product and the doctors in competition are ... going to REDUCE the quality of their services?!?! Yeah, because that's what people do in fierce competition - make stuff less desirable ... I mean that really brings in the costumers! I mean, hey, the chicken looks a little green, but it IS cheap after all. And, hey, I'm obviously to stupid to know better.. yuck yuck yuck and hey... there is no law in this world you created.... yuck yuck yuck.....

    I mean, come on, in the real world a person would of course ONLY go to a doctor their insurance company screened as that would be the one most affordable and you'd have confidence in.



    You guys just have no idea how a real free-market would function.

    You COULD just walk in off the street to a dude with a nazi tatoo on his forhead and say: Hey mate, me wife needs a baby delivered...

    OR... wait for it.... you'd go to a doctor your insurance provider has approved (which would more than likely be qualified by a private University) and (with technology that would make today's fMRI's look like a toaster) have the absolute best affordable delivery you can imagine.

    Samsung Galaxy III supercomputer in your pocket with free world wide video conferencing. Don't tell me it's not possible. THIS is what a real free market (and it's not even really a free market as we have patents and other regulations) provides.

    Now you tell me - which are YOU going to chose? Are you going to save a couple dollars on the cheap tatoo nazi guy to deliver YOUR BABY!?!?? Or the very affordable insurance approved guy with a private university (we'll say Harvard) qualification and is also very affordable - actually, as you have insurance, he's free of any additional charge?


    Which are YOU going to pick?


    NOTE: If you think Obama and Mittens are actually going to do anything substantially different - you're in for a lot of disappointment.



    Tell me, your whole post - it was farce right? Sarcasm and I missed it (I am a bit tipsy)
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    OK, let me make it simpler for you. Medical care costs more because people use more of it - because there IS more of it today, and it works.

    Most of them were invented and discovered in a free market.

    We'd have more. It would be less reliable - and far more expensive.

    Your mistake (common to libertarians and right wingers alike) is to think that corporations are in it for the good of society. They're not. They are in it for the good of THEM. If a drug company can give away free cigarettes and then charge you millions for a lung cancer cure, they would do it, because it would make them lots of money. If they can sell antibiotics that don't work, they would do that - because fake antibiotics are cheaper than real ones. If they can sell dangerous medicines that will kill you, but kill you before you can sue, they would do that. In fact they used to do that. Google 'patent medicines.' If they can sell vaccines that don't really do anything, but make parents feel better, then they would do that, and count on cashing in before the next epidemic hit.

    Who prevents that? The horrible, evil government in the form of the FDA.
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    We'd had hundreds of years of free market health care by then, on six continents, without any of that stuff being invented and discovered. How long do you think we should have waited?

    Health care was cheap 80 years ago - that would have been around 1930 - partly because what was available was worth little. The stuff that was worth paying for - opium, well educated doctors, gold tooth fillings installed under anesthesia, serious childbirth problems handled - wasn't cheap. So the price of walking away from the deal was not that high.
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, many republicans are reporting just that. Indeed, some are actually firing employees to make it seem like Obamacare is bad. They figure that losing a few employees is a small price to pay to get their political goals achieved.

    Meanwhile, at companies that are not manipulating their own labor pools to achieve their political goals:

    =============

    Critics frequently characterize the Affordable Care Act (ACA) as a threat to American business and to the survival of employer-based health insurance. The law’s new requirements, they argue, create business uncertainty, delay economic recovery, and will cost jobs. But objective analysis of the ACA’s impact on coverage and costs demonstrates the opposite. . . .

    Overall, the evidence simply does not support critics’ arguments that the ACA will burden employers and undermine employer-sponsored health insurance. On the contrary, except for a cost increase to mid-size employers due largely to enrollment increases, the ACA benefits rather than burdens small employers who want to provide health insurance, leaves the overall costs of employer-sponsored health insurance largely unchanged, and offers the potential, through cost containment, of slowing the growth in health care costs, benefiting private along with public purchasers of health insurance.

    =============

    http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/41...Affordable-Care-Act-for-American-Business.pdf
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Before I end up sending myself to have my wrist looked at.

    Explain the fact we have supercomputers produced by the free-market that are extremely complex, extremely reliable, ultra cheap that fit in our pocket. These super computers allow you to use free internet (say, when in a free-market cafe') whereby you can actually have a hi-definition real-time video conference anywhere in the world!
    Did I mention FOR FREE? Assuming you were a jerk and asked for a glass of water and sat down and started using the internet (or lived nearby). It would all be EXTREMELY CHEAP. Particularly if you bough a smart phone that was a few models back dated. Just think about this a minute.

    What? You think Samsung is 'in it for the good of society'?

    Go on, explain it to me. I'd really like to hear your logic on this one.


    The real fact is medicine would be cheap, affordable and of a much higher standard in a free-market. MUCH HIGHER quality. If we lived in a free-market we'd be working 2 days a week at the most and living a wonderfully happy productive life. Stop and ask yourself: Was I Public Schooled for 12 years? Could I maybe be a State-bot and not realize it?






    Ever see those women who move from the middle east and stop wearing their hair covering. THAT takes a LOT of courage. Most can't break away from their social upbringing - even if they're not that religious. AKA: A theobot. It's just very hard for anyone to see past what they think of as normal.

    Which is better? Using force and coercion or volunteerism?
     

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