Holocaust ... and other forms of Denial

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Feb 19, 2017.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Nope, it's just an alpha value used to claim a statistical inference for a very specific hypotheses with clearly defined variables. In the case of IQ, the score is the dependent variable and lead exposure, white racism, etc... are the independent variables. Easily analyzed by one-way ANOVA. Two-way if you thought there was an effect of one on the other.

    YET, we have no data. Weird that one.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Uh, no, she's retailing a canard of anti-Semitic bigotry, common among black and white people alike.

    As noted, that blind spot of yours - to even flagrant examples of racism in your own and other people's narratives - may partly explain your denial of the effects of white racism on black people in the US.
    You are denying one of the more easily seen and visible effects of white racism on black people in the US, and one that directly affects IQ scores - likelihood and severity of childhood lead exposure. But since you deny them all, the more flagrant ones don't stand out.

    What stands out is the denial itself. Once its full dimensions come into view, it's spectacular. Baghdad Bob and Sean Spicer have got nothing on your standard American "conservative" talking about racism.

    I doubt many people would believe it existed just from secondhand accounts. I've noticed that posters here from overseas consistently overlook and underestimate this massive, weird denial that is part of normal American public discourse - they have a hard time wrapping their heads around it.
    You won't. Who are those other people who will?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    White racism is not a single variable. And until you do have the data you would need for something like your two-way ANOVA, you can't do it. If you can't do it, you haven't done it.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    Not all stereotyping is bigotry.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    But I'm sure all yours are.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    But the standard stereotyping involved in the standard bigotries in the US is familiar, and pretending you don't recognize it is not credible.

    This, for example, is ridiculous:
    The topic is the denial of the effects of white racism on black people in the US. Much bigotry was and is involved.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  9. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    So "Asians are good at math" is bigoted?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    It's in with the
    sure.
    Ask any US "Asian" who isn't good at math. Or the Laotians, Hmong, Malaysians, Inuit, Hawaiians, etc, who get swept up in that bs.
    So is "The Jews own Hollywood {et al}", from your video. That's stereotypical anti-Semiticism, and you know it.

    Why are you denying it?

    Apparently, like other forms of dishonesty, one denial leads to another, and another, and eventually an entire worldview built on denial of the world in front of one's face.
     
  11. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    And? White folk can't dance, and blacks excel at sports.
    If those are enough to "keep you down" you should seek help.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Denial, illustrated.
    Denial of the effects of white racism on black people in the US.
     
  13. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    I don't know about white folk dancing, but blacks excelling at sports is a statistically verified fact. Stereotypes can be factual.
    And if the exceptional among your own race are what's "keeping you down", that's a personal problem.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Since it never is, nobody has any such problem. Back to the topic?

    That was, btw, the standard Foxquestion format of bad faith posting - "If {thing we want to say, but it's too flagrantly idiotic to state plainly}, then {a consequence of what we want to say that's too idiotic to state plainly} is the case.

    That illustrates one way in which the ridiculousness of their denial of white racism's effects on black people in the US is hidden from the self-awareness of the deniers.
    All stereotypes misrepresent a core of some kind of truth, or did at one time. So?

    The basic problem with that one is that the black race is a fiction - pockets of African people from the west coast and congo forest area can run fast and jump high, genetically, but not so much run for distance; the Ethiopian and Kenyan east coast area seems to harbor a genetic population of excellent distance runners, not so much the jump and sprint guys, and other melanistic populations don't seem to excel noticeably in either. There isn't any generic black racial excellence at "sports" - unless you set up the "black" race in the first place as a sort of grab bag conglomeration, which makes fiction of your stereotype at its base.

    There is at least one professional, highly paid, and widely played sport that is not biased toward sprint and jump genetics: soccer. http://www.vdare.com/posts/20-highe...-soccer-is-much-whiter-than-american-football
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285


    As relevant today as he was in the 1980s. Note his analysis of Chinese living in Malaysia. Not only are they the minority, but Malaysia has actual laws that structural and legally discriminate against Chinese. The Chinese made a significant amount more than the average Malay.

    The average IQ of a Malay is 92, whereas a Chinese is 105. But, hey, we can't really infer anything from that, it must be the lead and noise pollution again. Oh, wait, what am I thinking, it's White Racism. That's why never, anywhere on the planet earth, in all of history, have people been magically equal. But never mind that, we must totally destroy what's left of European and English culture because White.

    LOL


    It should be noted, E. Asians are now pretty much white. I've heard "White" Professors in Medical Schools say these words: "We have to do something about the Asian problem". What's that? Well, in a rent-seekers world, where all that matters is assessment, high IQ Asians dominate the medical school admittance requirements. But, hey, that's probably due to the all the lead the White people are drinking, because what.... which has been going on since the 1960s (see video).
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
    Syne likes this.
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Now we must deny the effects of white racism on black people in the US because to recognize them will "totally destroy what's left of European and English culture".

    And we can tell that this is so because descendants of Chinese immigration to Malaysia have higher IQs than native Malaysians.

    It gets weirder all the time, this denial business.

    btw: Cluster analyses of human genetic groupings group Malaysians with the Japanese, and the Han Chinese in a different cluster. Just fyi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  17. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,003
    Its you who is in denial business.

    You have a nice technique, but it does not change the facts you want to deny. You technique is simple: Take some general stereotype you want to deny. It is usually some statistical correlation. Once you cannot get rid of it, you use the other way - find a more specific correlation. You don't like the "blacks - sport" correlation, ok, let's use the more specific one, "African people from the west coast and congo forest area can run fast and jump high", and "Ethiopian and Kenyan east coast area seems to harbor a genetic population of excellent distance runners". From a scientific point of view, this is good - because it is more specific, so the correlation will be usually higher. "Asians - math" you don't like, and reject it with the point that one needs separate correlations for "Laotians, Hmong, Malaysians, Inuit, Hawaiians". From a scientific point of view - fine, such a more specialized study would give much better correlations about which Asians - Chinese or Malaysians - are really good in math.

    But that these more specific results are better does not make the more general and therefore weaker correlations go away, it explains them, and gives them additional power, because the more specific correlations are even stronger, and, looking at your sports examples, can give even more specific causal (selection pressure of the specific environment) explanation. And the more specific stereotype, given that it is stronger, leads also to less errors. One would not expect a Pygmy to be better in basketball than the average White, even if the "blacks - sport" correlation makes this suggestion. But does that mean it is completely wrong? No. A correlation is nothing but a correlation, and a weak correlation does not give much.

    In other words, all you propose as long as you make reasonable remarks are improvements of the stereotypes - to replace them with better, stronger stereotypes. But you sell this as a rejection of the "stereotypes" you fight. And combine this with the usual nonsense a la "Ask any US "Asian" who isn't good at math." as if the stereotype would tell us that all Asians are good in math.

    This is a clear case of denial. Because you know that such "stereotype" correlations exist (you have proposed some yourself, with "Ethiopian and Kenyan east coast area seems to harbor a genetic population of excellent distance runners") but nonetheless you fight them in general, personal attacks of "bigotry" inclusive.

    What is on the other side? You claim "denial of the effects of white racism on black people in the US". I have not seen much evidence for this, and, moreover, your opponents have no logical reason to deny this. Will you be harmed if a majority of the population hates you? Some people become stronger having more enemies, but these are exceptions, in general the result of a negative reaction of a majority will be negative. I doubt any of your opponents has any problem accepting this point, and have not seen clear statements which would support the claim that somebody denies this.

    What your opponents disagree with is the thesis that this negative effect explains a lot about the actual situation of blacks in the US. They think there is a lower IQ of blacks, and that it is not, or at least not completely caused by racism, so that it will remain even without any racism, and this will continue to have negative influence on the success of the average black in whatever society as long as other races have equal rights. This position remains reasonable without any denial of negative influence of white racism on blacks.

    So, your claim of "denial of the effects of white racism on black people in the US" sounds like a strawman.
     
    Syne likes this.
  18. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    Good. We agree.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Maybe you missed it? Thomas Sowell did the actual research and has been doing the research since the 1970s. The answer you're looking for is this: There's no significant effect of White Racism.

    The science suggests the observed differences are due to genetic differences that pertain to IQ. Which is why the same phenomena of unequal social status is observed across time and space. Including high IQ E. Asians in the USA as well as Malaysia where they're not only a minority, but also live under legal discrimination.

    You're a Science Denier. And apparently a racist given you're blaming White people for something they have no control over, the IQ of other people: Yellows or Blacks for example.

    As for the denigration of American / European culture in the USA. That's an observable fact. An example would be the way you frame the 250 years of Slavery in the America without referencing it only lasted a single lifetime, < 90 years, in the USA - and was ended by White Christians. 5000+ years of Slavery was ended in the middle east and Africa, by White People.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    Syne likes this.
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    This was interesting:
    Feminism was bad for two-thirds of woman.
    - Fay Weldon
    Author Fay Weldon has risked infuriating fellow feminists by claiming their cause left two-thirds of British women worse off. In an interview in The Mail on Sunday’s Event magazine today, Weldon, 85, says the feminist revolution had adverse implications by ‘halving the male wage, so it no longer supported a family.’ That meant some women had to get jobs, even if they would rather have been at home with their children. ‘Women had to work to support the family. So for two in three women, it really was a problem.’​

    The essential idea is this: Women entered the labor force (to the glee of the tax-collector) only to find that each year since the 1970s women's happiness has declined with the only result being an increase in labor-hours, thus halving of the price they sell at. IOWs: increase supply (labor-hours), decrease demand (lower wage). In the past, only about 1 in 3 women worked, and they were generally lower income and did so to get by with their families. But, thanks to claims of how wunderful it is to work 60 hours a week, (while at the same time stuffing children into day supervision centers at the age of 21 days - with government vouchers - you know, to 'Government Help / get to work and pay your tax'), upper income women began moving into the workforce. The result? Zero economic gains for laborers.

    There's no problem with women wanting to be professionals and taking the life-hit to do so. But, that's not what has happened for women who want to invest the time and energy into properly raising a family themselves (which is a lot of work 0 - 5), they have instead been forced into work - just to keep up. Now (a) their husbands jobs don't pay enough to make ends meet and (b) cost of living increases. These are 'middle class' women. In the past they'd have had the time to remain at home - particularly given the massive gains in production.

    Of course, there's more to the story, but interesting nonetheless.

    I think Japan is a fascinating counter-example. While they did end up with an oversupply of people, thanks to GiverMint interfering with the price mechanism so that rational people, who 'think' fiat currency is signalling correct pricing, didn't make the correct long-term investments. However, Japan always maintained a traditional family unit culture. Thus, instead of correcting their mistakes by massive immigration (which is utterly asinine) they're doubling down on robotics - the increased productivity makes up for the fall in labor.


    As an aside, I like to ask Chinese what they think of the 'West'. Particularly when I'm in China. They generally seem to agree that the time of the West is over. The West reached the peak long ago, one told me the other day. Time for the East (read: China) to rise again. Will it? Who knows, but I find the change in their perspective from one that saw the West as a leader, to a one where the West is seen as odd, sometimes idiotic, maybe dangerous - but, whatever we are, we not a leader for them to follow. How times are changing. Each year we are seen as more and more 'progressive' and less and less 'rational' to those in the East.

    I heard this the other day: A Chinese man was asked what he thought of the French Revolution? His reply? It's too early to tell if this was a good idea or not.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    Schmelzer and Syne like this.
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    All of this is nonsense - I don't "reject" any of those correlations. I accepted them all, and considered a couple in detail. I reject the dumbass arguments these guys are trying to make from them.
    Meanwhile, you are as always lacking information: the Malaysian/Chinese comment was about IQ, not math - the poster I was replying to had posted a map of IQ scores at one time, and then proceeded to make racial IQ claims his map (and common knowledge) contradicted.
    Nope.
    I don't "fight" any stereotypes, I observe that they do not support arguments in this thread
    The US stereotype does in fact operate - among the bigoted, who are its only employers in the US - as bias toward assuming all Asians are good at math. And if you talk to Asians who aren't, this has often caused them some awkwardness, etc - the bigotry of it is obvious to them. I was responding to the claim that such racial presumptions were not bigotries, because they were complimentary or something like that.
    Yep. It's called "denial" - but of course of the actual effects of actual white racism over centuries, which are obvious and flagrant and ongoing, not your childish description of some people hating each other.
    I would agree with that position, at least grant it credibility. But that's not their position.

    The key observation is that the races involved have not had "equal rights" and so forth, very far from it;
    that the degree of background or uninfluenced IQ handicap is not known and by good evidence is not nearly as large as the visible injury;
    and that the effects of white racism are suitably large and blatantly visible;
    so that their actual position is not in fact reasonable given the actual circumstances at hand.
    I have never claimed that these guys - or you - have any logical reasons for their massive and flagrant denial.
    You have no idea how racism works in the US, but you insist on posting your silly little dissembling fantasies. That's your brand.
    Those are not "stereotype correlations" (?) in the US, where all those populations are racially black alike. Obama, for example, is associated with basketball rather than distance running.
    You appear to have an incorrect sense of the meaning of "stereotype", btw.
    I'm not denying any facts. You can't list a single fact denied by me in this thread, or on this forum.
    Your blindness and ignorance in US racial matters is well known and thoroughly established - you really needn't post any more such claims of what you can and can't "see".

    If you want yet another example of one of these bizarre denials, here:
    Whatever you get from your wingnut videos, that always turns into mush and nonsense in written prose, it makes you happy for bad reasons.

    Denial - it's not just a river in Egypt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  22. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,003
    As usual, you cannot argue without such primitive personal attacks. Looks like a variant of Coprolalia.
    Ignoring some irrelevant minor quibbles, it remains to answer this:
    Ok, given your known "ability" to describe the position of your opponents correctly, which I have been able to observe a lot in my communications with you, this counts as a full agreement. You agree with what, in my opinion after reading their claims, is their position. This is, clearly, the optimal result imaginable in a discussion with you.
     
    Syne likes this.
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Sure. And always have. But that - as you may have noticed - does not affect the actual discussion with them about the positions they actually have, which are quite different -

    being motivated and framed by standard US racial prejudice, a matter in which you are completely uninformed and apparently always will be

    and being applied to the US in real life, not some hypothetical place of "equal rights" and "whatever society" in which white racism does not have the effects it has and has had in the US.

    So that your reading of their claims has you posting quite comical incomprehensions, such as this:
    The entire discussion topic of the thread, starting from the two-post OP, you have seen no evidence exists? Or was that a glitch in English language usage, and you meant to say that it was the effects of white racism you had seen no evidence of? I don't know which is sillier, frankly.

    Either way, your claiming some kind of authority for what you have and have not seen in the way of US racial matters is - what's a polite way to put it - less than persuasive. It's an odd rhetorical habit, in the face of what you must know of your own information deficit here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017

Share This Page