how can Islam be considered an abrahamic religion?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by FelixC, May 8, 2008.

  1. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    just curious about this

    does the Koran include the Torah or New Testament? (in their Bible, the Christians include the complete Torah, Prophets and Psalms (the Old Testament to them)

    how come Islam does not observe the Sabbath (it looks like they have Friday afternoon services???); Sabbath is Friday night to Saturday evening, like Jews?

    are the "10 Commandments" included in the Koran? if not, why not?
     
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  3. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks for starting this thread, I'll be glad to answer any of your questions.

    I hope that this thread stays civil, but I have my doubts as other Islam-based threads have just become Anti-Muslim threads where Muslims get flamed.

    No, the reason for this is that we believe the Bible has been corrupted by men's hands. There is truth in it, but we believe there is also falsehood, so we avoid it.

    Muslims observe Friday as a holy day, like Christians observe Sunday as a holy day. This was a commandment of our Prophet (s) to change the date to Friday.

    Yes, all the Ten Commandments are included in the Quran but not technically in one location.

    The reason why Islam is considered an Abrahamic faith is that we honor Prophet Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) (a) as our patriarch like Jews and Christians, along with all the prophets mentioned in the Bible and Torah. We also follow strict Monotheism like the Jews (without concept of Trinity like our Christian brothers), and we accept Prophet Jesus (Isa) (a) as the Messiah and last prophet for the Children of Israel (Banu Isra'eel), but as only a man, not God on earth.

    There are numerous other rituals and beliefs which connect us with the Christians and Jews. As a matter of fact, Islam is very similar to Judaism except for minor differences.
     
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  5. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

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    What evidence do Muslims have for this? How is it that they came to have this belief?
     
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  7. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    The ten commandments allegedly come from Moses, not Abraham.

    An Abrahamic religion would by definition be based on the religion of Abraham as its foundation, regardless of how many stories were built on top of it.
     
  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Evidence and Belief...dont go together.
     
  9. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

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    point taken
     
  10. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    DH:
    1. you're welcome & thanks for the offer
    2. me too, if not, just ignore them or PM me
    3. that troubles me on several levels;
    if the word of God can be corrupted, then, what is truth?
    the Dead Sea Scrolls are from 70 AD (40 years after Christ died, but 300 years before they got any political power), if there are any errors or inconsistencies between Jewish & Christian Bibles, they would show up on them, since they would not have any reason to synchronize their accounts
    Islam came 600 years after, so it should have had time to compare them
    Jesus said, "the truth shall set you free"
    4. Christians changed the day for 2 different reasons;
    they were no longer welcomed in synagogues
    Jesus was resurrected on Sunday
    what was Mohammad's reasoning for the change?
    5. could you direct me their location?
    6. does the Koran have quotes or stories about Abraham?
    7. Isa? that doesn't sound right? I thought that Arabic & Hebrew were more closely related? isn't that "Esau" (Isa), Jacob's brother (who God changed his name to Israel) in the Bible, in Hebrew Jesus is "Y'Shua" (Yahweh Saves), shouldn't in Arabic it sound the same? Abraham is Ibrahim, shouldn't Jesus be "I'Sha"???
    8. interesting, I noticed the hats & the beards among the more orthodox
     
  11. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    The inherent contradiction of the Torah and the Bible with each other. The idea of trinity or divinity of Messiah Jesus (peace be to him). The fact that both Torah and Bible contradict the Quran, which Muslims believe to be the unchanged, primordial religion.

    I wil take you up on this offer, definately if I have questions. I actually own the Bible, which I read from time to time.

    The main contention which Muslims have toward the Bible are:
    1. Trinity, which include divinity of Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him)
    2. That Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross
    3. The Bible was written with various authors
    4. We do not accept Paul as a disciple of Jesus (peace be to him)
    5. The complete break of the dietary laws of the Jews (pork esp.)
    6. Why was the road to salvation different before Jesus (peace be to him) than after him?

    We believe the early Christians worshiped one God, no trinity, and believed in Jesus (peace be to him) as prophet only. We consider them Muslims (meaning those who submit to God), which we believe was the religion of all prophets. Islam came when the majority of Christians fell into believing in trinity, and a new prophet was needed.

    Our reasons were:
    1. God's command to change it in the Quran.
    2. The Quran was revealed on Friday.
    3. Earth was created and will end on Friday.
    1. To be different than the Jews and Christians.

    Quran:
    http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

    Yes, it also contains a surah 14 named Abraham. Surah 19 is Mary (peace be to her). Surah 5 is the Table (from story of Jesus (peace be upon him), table which came from heaven for disciples).

    Well, Arabic and Hebrew are semitic languages and share some similarities, while still having differences. Semitic languages have similar words, but vowel differences are not major, for instance some people may pronounce Ibraheem, as Abraham, but the same root word. Prophet Abraham (peace be to him) was not Hebrew or Arab (these are his descendants), he was from the city of Ur in Iraq. Isa is Arabic for Jesus (peace be to him).

    Yes, orthodox Jews do that. In Islam, it is encouraged, not mandatory, that Muslims should have some facial hair, particularly beard, and also wear a head covering, especially while praying.
     
  12. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: Actually, the Ten Commandments were of a much earlier origin and part of the Code of Hammurabi. There were many more than just ten listed in the Code.

    *************
    M*W: Abraham was the son of an Egyptian pharaoh. His wife, Sarah, was also his half-sister and an Egyptian princess. Abraham's religion was based on Egyptian paganism as was his father Terah's. It wasn't until Abraham was 13 years old that he abandoned idol worship.(1)

    During the time of Abraham (c. 1800 BCE), the locals did NOT worship Yahweh, the God of Moses (c. 1400 BCE) or the ancient Israelites after the time of Moses.(1)

    Tracing the roots of Abraham, Muhammad argued that Abraham had not been Jewish, because he lived long before God gave the Torah to Moses (or Hammurabi), so Muhammad proclaimed Abraham to be a Muslim.(1)

    According to Ernest Busenbark's records, he refers to the books of Judges, Samuel and Kings that cover at least 1,000 years of Jewish history, there are no references made to Yahweh's talks with Moses. They say nothing about the miracles of Moses that he performed in Egypt, his passage of the Red Sea, or his wanderings in the Wilderness. The names of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses are mentioned, but nothing is said about their actual existence and they are treated as if they are legendary figures.(2)

    Although Genesis Chapters 1 and 2 do not elaborate on the numbers, I think it is quite telling when Abraham was promised by Yahweh that he would have seed as "numerous as the stars of heaven for multitudes."(2)

    I believe this statement alludes to amore astro-theological interpretation of "multitudes."

    The word for an Hebrew in the Hebrew language of the OT is "ibri." Scholars believe the most common view is that the word is related to the Hebrew preposition "ibr" meaning "across," and that it was modified to describe Abraham. Similar words to "ibr" which have the same meanining are Ibrihim, Habiru and Kabiru or the "one who travels across."(3) I also believe this has a connotation of something that travels across the sky (a planet, a comet, a meteorite, etc.).

    With that said, the "Ibiru" (Hebrews) made their first appearance in the fifteenth century, who Osman regards as the time of Abraham. He also asserts that "Abraham has been regarded by Jews and Christians alike as the founding fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel. In this chapter I shall argue that Abraham's patriarchy is by no means actual: rather it is of symbolic importance to the Israelites and to their descendants, and, indeed, to Christians."(4)

    The story of Hagar's and Ishmael's banishment from Abraham's tent is apparently not mentioned in the Qur'an, but Islamic tradition agrees with the Bible on this story which represents Ishmael as a baby, carried by his mother Hagar and was unable to crawl from the spot where she placed him when the water fountain suddenly gushed beneath his feet. "The sources of Islamic tradition are mainly biblical, Talmudic and other Jewish literature. They are reliable in showing how old Jewish accounts were different from biblical ones in some cases, but they cannot be regarded as historical."(4)

    In my astro-theological interpretation, I believe that our Abraham represents the Sign of Aries (similar to "Brahman," "Ibrahim," "ram," "lamb," "Ramadan," etc.), and coincidently, it was a "ram" that Abraham took to sacrifice instead of Isaac.

    Darlison comments on the astro-theological meanings of Abraham: "The whole story of Abraham seems to reflect the movement of the equinoctial point from Taurus to Aries ("the bull" (or "golden cow") that was worshipped by the ancient Habiru who lived down in Egypt during the time (but, I am not referring to the actual existence of Moses). Taurus is also a reflection on Mithriac worship. To continue Darlison's comments, "He (Abraham) is supposed to have lived around 2000 BCE, at the beginning of the Arien Age, and he is instructed by God to move out of the familiar territory of his homeland and go to an unknown country. His (Abraham's) experience is representative of all new beginnings (Spring), when we are called to proceed "in faith" to an unknown future with no certainties and few landmarks. It is the ram of Aries that Abraham finds in the thicket as he prepares to sacrifice Isaac."(5)

    But whom do Ishmael and Isaac represent? I believe they represent the Age of Pisces (the fish) and the end of Winter which Abraham (Aries) symbolically aims to sacrifice.

    My point to this long post is to show the many different meanings of who Abraham might have been and who he was to many cultures and faiths. The story of Abraham ranges from being a pagan moon worshipper (later Moses worshipped the sun as the only deity), to becoming the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Unfortunately, a man named "Abraham/Ibrihim" may not have existed in ancient history at all but may just be a fictional character in really old gossip rags (probably owned by Rupert Murdoch).

    However, my take on it is and always will be astro-theological, because it's been stated many times, "There is nothing new under the sun." The only true connection between all three faiths is the fact that Abraham is an astro-logical myth created by the ancients from their interpretations of the night skies (moon worship).

    References:

    (1) Panati, Charles: Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The Stories Behind the Rights and Rituals of the World's Religions, Penguin Books, 1996.

    (2) Busenbark, Ernest: Symbols, Sex, and the Stars in Popular Beliefs: Origins of Moon and Sun Worship, Astrology, Sex Symbolism, Mystic Meaning of Numbers, the Cabala, and Many Popular Customs, Myths, Superstitions and Religious Beliefs, Truth Seeker, Co., Inc, 1949.

    (3) Osman, Ahmed: Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, Bear & Company, 2002.

    (4) Osman, Ahmed: Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion, Bear & Company, 2005.

    (5) Darlison, Bill: The Gospel & the Zodiac: The Secret Truth About Jesus, Duckworth Overlook, 2007.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    FelixC,

    By "Abrahamic" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that the religion has Abraham in it's mythos? If so then yes Islam is an Abrahamic religion.

    Actually, so is Mormonism. The Mormon's Last Prophet Joseph Smith also incorporated Abraham into his religion. So it's Abrahamic.

    The Bahai' found that there were so many inconsistencies in the Qur'an that their founder and Newest Adam wrote a new Perfect Book and it has Abraham in it so it's Abrahamic.

    Then there's the Ahmadiyya (they also didn't think Mohammad was the Last Prophet) so they have their own Prophet and also they have Abraham so they are Abrahamic.

    Actually, I'm not sure but I think Ron Hubbard the founder of Scientology has mentioned Abraham on a tape somewhere - maybe they are Abrahamaic too?


    Michael


    PS: Jews do not consider Christianity has any true validity at all - - they'd consider it as much "Abrahamic" as you would Scientology.
     
  14. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    1. well, I have to admit I didn't read more than the title, but as I was walking by an aisle at a local bookstore, there was some guy saying something about walking in the footsteps of Abraham, & so I remember reading somewhere,that all three (Judeo/Christian/Islam) are considered Abrahamic,
    but I'm not sure that Islam is, it seems like its own religion, not connected to Judiasm, because they do things different
    2. some Messianic Jews came to our church years ago during Passover, they said that many of the rituals, symbols of Seder (Passover meal) have Christian meanings
    hiding the "wounded" matzah bread (something about it having holes, "sinless" no yeast in it, hidden in a pouch with 3 pockets & brought out of hiding on the 3rd day) I would have paid more attention but a girl I knew was there & so I was paying more attention to her. they mentioned the quote from Isaiah about "He was wounded for our transgressions"
    3. yeah, but Tom Cruise is crazy, last time I jumped on a couch I think I was 4 years old

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  15. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    MW:
    1. if Abraham was Egyptian, than he would be black, I went to the LA museum when they had that Egyptian stuff, I have an uncle that says early Egyptians were black until they started getting conquered by all these white people;
    Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs
    so Abraham was black!?
    2, 3, 4. you confused me several times, some statements you seem to be saying, others seem to be in the first person, but its a quote? I'm sure I understood what you were saying, just that I needed to re-read it

    P.S. those names don't look right, "Egypt" has too many consonants & I think it looks wrong
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2008
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Hi FelixC, yes, those cute church girls were probably the only reason I went

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    Ooo this sounds really cool. Anyone else ever heard of this? What's the story?
     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This is not true. They distinguished themselves form the Nubian Kingdom to the south. Ramses II actually had naturally red colored hair. He was a red head

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    maybe even a ginger??

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  18. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    dude, my uncle's says that Africans have all the genes to make other races

    I've met a black dude with green eyes, a neighbor (not fake,I can tell because I hate fake eye colors, its like you don't like yourself deep inside (my opinion )

    and red-headed blacks
    and almond-eyed black girls, (a real cute one where I used to work, but I think she's about 30, too old for me, I can handle 2 or 3 years either way, but not that old)

    I just saw an albino black girl with blond hair as I drove passed a bus stop, I had to look
     
  19. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    they offered evryone that signed up, a Passover meal at our church then, but my ride (I had no car then) had to go, so i never seen how it works,

    to find out if its really true, I think you should rather go to a "real" synagogue" during Passover & see how they do it that would be a test, but I'm too chicken to try that , not being Jewish & all, plus I would have an ulterior motive, almost a bit too sneaky?
     
  20. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    134
    there are many shades of black, even mixed, which I think is what the Egyptians were, being right on the edge of Africa, by Europe, Asia

    its like saying, is Obama black? or Tiger Woods?
    yep, Egyptians were black
    or they had real deep tans
     
  21. FelixC Registered Senior Member

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    M: there are many shades of black, even mixed, which I think is what the Egyptians were, being right on the edge of Africa, by Europe & Asia

    its like saying, is Obama black? or Tiger Woods?
    yep, Egyptians were black
    or they had real deep tans
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I see you're point but then why say "black". I'm blond haired, blue eyes and white BUT isn't that just a tad lighter than someone with a bit better tan ... all the way over to dark black. Not that it matters anyway. I mean, it does matter but only in our head. I for one don't find white skinned European people like me attractive at all. I like dark hair, dark eyes .. etc.. so like I said, it's all in our head.



    Here is a real statue of Nefertiti from 1370 - 1330 BC. She was the Royal Wife of the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten. So, she would have looked like a classic Egyptian from that time.

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  23. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: Since there were no photographs taken of Abraham, we really don't know what color he was, not that it matters. I wouldn't go so far as to say all ancient Egyptians were Black. The mummies discovered weren't all Black.

    *************
    M*W: I'm confused about what you're confused about. Are you referring to my references? If so, I've quoted everything that was stated verbatim. The other stuff without the quotes (except those few instances where I quoted within a statement to show significance of the words). There are several citations that were written in the first person. I know that's confusing. If you want me to clarify any statements, specify them and I'll do what I can to explain.
    *************
    M*W: How do you spell "Egypt?" What other names are you referring to?
     

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