How did they remove the nails ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ted Grant II, May 14, 2017.

  1. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Flagellation at the hands of the Romans is mentioned in three of the four canonical Gospels. Also remember that he wore a crown of thorns, which, one assumes, also caused injury.
    As he was being marched to the place of execution Jesus was whipped until he collapsed. Jesus also had a spear thrust in his side and nails piercing his limbs.

    Doubting Thomas was able, days later, to feel the piercings in his hands (!) and place his hand in the opening in the side of Jesus (small cut?).

    Even if the blood had stopped flowing, he would obviously have been covered with sticky blood and I suspect the floor below the cross would have been pretty messy too; blood mixed with the mud that had been trampled on by the team of Romans. I wonder why they drew lots and divided his dirty, blood stained clothes ? It all seems rather implausible.

    Given all the time and effort required for the treatment leading up to and including the crucifixion of the three "criminals", I can't imagined the Romans would have been too keen to get anybody down again for any reason, let alone to allow some Jewish guy to do it, who just happened to turn up a couple of hours later.

    The point of crucifixion, as opposed to any simple method, such as beheading, was to humiliate the criminal and terrify on-lookers for days and weeks later.
    Taking him down a couple of hours after putting him up would defeat the main purpose of the method and what would be the point?

    I know the story tellers give reasons, but are they credible?
    Did the Romans respect the religious notions of the defeated locals ?
    The Romans had their own religion and thought the Jews were pagans.

    The only reason Jesus was taken down ( in the story) is that he had to come back to life and walk around.
    He couldn't do that whilst nailed to the cross.

    The only person who knew that he was going to come back to life was the first author of the myth (Paul ?).
    I know there were several authors later, but they used the first story when composing their own.

    There are no contemporary sources of the events in the life of Jesus, so historians, generally do not think the contradictory gospels are reliable sources.
    We also know that "Mark", the first full account, was modified by Christians to include the post crucifixion events.
    The later gospel writers, none of whom ever met Jesus, embellished the yarn further, for example to include invented genealogies.
     
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  3. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    As a trained carpenter , with much experience of nails, wood and heavy weights, I believe that Jesus was actually held up by ropes.
    The reasons for nails in addition to ropes, are very simple.
    They can't be removed without causing much damage to the body and the criminal cannot struggle free.
    Once he's up, he stays up.
     
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  5. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Why?
     
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  7. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Yes.
    Non-believing professional historians are more likely to give an accurate account of what probably happened, than believers who are keen to promote their faith.
     
  8. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Who is Dave ?
     
  9. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    First, the Romans were in charge and had slaves, so I suspect the expense was born by the conquered pagans.
    Second, why bother taking down the cross, having just put it up ?
    If you built a house, would you knock it down two hours later ?
    Third, the "necessary gear" was rope, hammers and wedges.
    I doubt it included a modern nail removing device.
     
  10. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    What friends and relatives ?
    We are told that some women watched from afar.
    All the disciples had fled, fearing a similar fate.
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    A contributor to this thread.
     
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    His mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, Mary Magdalene and "the disciple whom he loved" are all explicitly mentioned in St John's gospel. And someone , presumably a friend or relative, got hold of Joseph of Arimathea, if he wasn't actually at Golgotha himself.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

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    3,301
    the key word is 'criminal'. with the deception in nature, it's the criminals who also punished the innocent. they can dream up charges and even project their own guilt onto another. sometimes it's blatant/direct if they have zero conscience. it's never just one way. it's who has the power and there are those who abuse that power to obscene levels. history is full of such examples.

    that's the thing about sociopaths is they will criminalize those who are the victims and twist it around, just the same.
     
  14. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,156
    Nooooo

    Really?

    On the IMPLAUSIBLE scale with

    0 being totally believable and

    2,000,000 being a load of bollocks

    would you put the crucifixion?

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  15. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Because there wasn't room for an infinite number of corpses.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    Pretty sure the story goes that they were all shocked when they went to the tomb and he was no longer there. But Jesus had predicted his execution and resurrection. Whether his disciples believed him fully, no one knows. There is a lot of conjecture on whether he actually did predict the extent of it. The shock of his mother, aunt and the other dude who went to his tomb to anoint his body kind of says that they expected his body to be there and not somewhere else, ie, not resurrected.

    I don't know about that. I think the story would have been more interesting if he 'rose' while nailed to the cross and started singing "Always look on the bright side of life!"..

    Ermm no.

    Paul came after Jesus. Not during.

    The only person who predicted it before was Jesus.

    The whole story, well, to be exact, all religious text are modified stories that have been changed and added on and subtracted to suit a particular narrative at any given time.

    Why do you think the Romans would care about damaging his body?

    The documented practice of Romans was to use nails and sometimes they used both. Sometimes they even nailed people upside down, just for kicks. More often than not, the bodies remained nailed up or tied up, for wildlife to feast on.

    But sometimes they took the body down if the relatives of the deceased obtained permission to do so. Which is supposedly what happened this time.

    At some point, it would become risky, depending on where the bodies were crucified. Sometimes they did not, but sometimes, they would. There were no hard and fast rules about it. They were Romans. They did as they pleased when they pleased.

    I think all sides would argue that the other had an agenda of some sort.

    To wit, even non-believing professions would have to refer to the religious texts first and foremost and then work from there, the same for religious scholars.

    Dave's not here....

    Who knows..

    And the cross had been used. It could be taken down for the next dude and again, the family would have received permission to get him down. And they didn't just put it up. He'd been up there for a while. He didn't die immediately.

    A veritable stick in the ground is not a house.

    And?

    Good grief, they'd just need a wedge of some sort, possibly even a sword to leverage the nails out, or they probably just ripped the nails through his limbs.

    His mother, Mary Magdalene, Mary of Clopas, various Jewish priests, his disciples, Joseph of Arimathea, and a few other people whose names escape me. Not to mention the throng of people who came to watch the spectacle.

    His disciples did not flee. They were there and it is they who wrote the gospels describing the whole thing.

    It's amazing how all of this stuck from childhood religious classes...
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't add up. If they were accelerating death, why wait until the last minute to break legs? That doesn't even seem like a good way to kill quickly - with armed soldiers right there, an unnecessary complication and delay. And it's something one would do before taking the condemned down, a while before surely. So how was Jesus "found" to be dead "already"? They climb up and take a pulse before breaking legs?
    The entire story is odd, fishy.
     
  18. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Or as one poster seems to think chickeny

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  19. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Well, crucifixion was in principle meant to be a lingering death, as a brutal deterrent, presumably. BUT according to the story the local occupying Roman government paid a bit of deference to local custom, so on this occasion, with Passover coming up, they cut short the punishment by breaking the legs of those still alive, so they could get the grisly exhibits taken down, presumably before sunset, which is when the Jewish sabbath starts. Jesus looked dead already, so someone checked with a spear and decided - presumably by means of the amount and nature of what came out (colour? watery composition? small amount? lack of force with which it came out?), - he was gone, so they didn't bother. I don't see why this looks so difficult.
     
  20. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Unfortunately you weren't there to tell them. They should have an oscilloscope to monitor the pulse rate .
    What do you think if a body would slump because the muscle tone is not there. I suppose there were also people intelligent to establish death because of experiences . Pilatus questioned and sent an official to verify if the man was death, Would it not reasonable to send an officer , which probable had experience in establishing the condition.
     

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