How do you feel about people who kill animals for the sheer fun of it?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Saven, May 3, 2009.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That's only one possible ethic.

    Why do you discount the bad consequences for the animal?

    Do you deny that animals want to live, or care about living?

    Or do you just not care about them?

    This is a nothing statement. The same can be said for a human being.
     
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  3. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    How do you feel about animals killing animals for the sheer fun of it?

    Cats, killer whales, chimps and humans come to mind.
     
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I feel that animals do not claim to possess the capacities for moral reasoning that humans claim to possess. We ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard as a consequence.

    Having said that, I am sure that there is huge variation among, say, individual killer whales, just as there is among individual human beings. It may be dangerous to generalise behaviour of an entire species from the actions of a few observed individuals.
     
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  7. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    I dont know that ther any "sicker" than other people.!!!
    Id say that mos people who hunt for "sport" was taut to behave that way by people they admired... an mos anybody coud be a "hunter" if they was raized under the rite circumstances.!!!


    Personaly... i dont care for it.!!!
     
  8. Blender3d777 Registered Member

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    You go ahead and do that, I'm gonna go hunting...squirrel tastes so good

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  9. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I hope you choke on one

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  10. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Shucks, you think squirrel tastes good.
    You ain't never tasted fried possum then.
    That's the tastiest little animal you ever did eat.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2009
  11. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Who said he did? However, what is your point?

    The animal dies....but I get to eat and enjoy the hunt. I, by self-proclamation and superiority in ability, come before the animal.

    Done and done. There is no "objective" morality or ethic; it's all might and subjectivity. That's reality.

    P.S. I don't actually hunt, it was just a statement

    No, but I really don't care. I want to eat. I want sport.

    There we go.

    I care about "them"....for instance, I care that cattle do not become extinct, because of their practical use. I care about their practical value, not "them"....they are not of my species and benefit me emotionally in no way


    Yes. And, ultimately, this is the case: there is nothing to stop a human from overpowering another. That is the way the world works, "the strong survive"

    However, we humans can reason, and we humans establish systems, and we humans have opinions. And so far, a large majority of humans seem to believe that we should protect one another.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Norsefire:

    I said he did, because he didn't say anything about them. My point, Norsefire, is that leaving out an important consideration makes a moral analysis flawed.

    Congratulations. You've just thrown out morality in favour of egotism.

    The view that might makes right is the view of the morally bankrupt.

    You don't want to be moral. Ok then.

    In other words, to you other creatures are nothing but means to your ends. Or, to put it another way, you're morally bankrupt. Ok then.

    In fact, there are many things that can stop such things. Morality is one of them - your nihilism notwithstanding.
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I can only hope that people like Norsefire get what they deserve one day.
     
  14. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    So we aren't animals?

    Not according to what I've heard, but I definitely have never met a cat who didn't enjoy a half dead mouse.
     
  15. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Miss the point much ?
    Humans claim to be different themselves. They claim to possess the capacities for moral reasoning (as James put it).
    Unfortunately, we're also born hypocrites.
     
  16. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Moral analyses (if that is the plural, I don't know) don't apply to everyone because not everyone believes in morals.



    How does your "morality" benefit me? We are individuals, and I have individual desires, goals, and abilities. We can work together, too, so I'm not saying we can't...but that doesn't mean we should burden ourselves.



    In your opinion. In reality, that is just the case.



    I am amoral. Not immoral. Big difference.



    Oh no, dear James R, I am simply amoral. Morality means nothing, it does not actually objectively exist, it is not a physical force of the universe. Sure, I can believe in fairies and morality, but I don't, so they don't apply.



    No, there is nothing to stop a man intent on killing another man from doing so...because it is assumed that that man sees no moral wrong in that action. And after that, what is to stop him? God? Fairies? Morality?

    Nothing. Except, of course, the actual enforcement systems we have established...but that's just it....it takes a physical and material thing in this world to actually have an effect. Immaterial, meaningless concepts like morality are, ultimately, powerless.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    swarm:

    Excuse me for confusing you. I was using the word "animals" in the common way to mean non-human animals. Hope that clears it up for you.

    Same for me. Cats, on the whole, are not particularly community-minded, though. They are not very social animals, except as regards their near relatives.

    In any case, my original point stands. No cat is out there making speeches about how much "higher" cats are than other animals, how much better their capacity for reason and intelligence is, how they are capable of moral reasoning etc.
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Norsefire:

    Rubbish. You can't just bow out of moral judgment because you claim that such a thing doesn't apply to you. Others will judge you.

    If you're talking evolution, you ought to read up on reciprocal altruism and its evolutionary benefits, for a start. I'll let you follow that up for yourself. The basic idea, though, is that people will tend to treat you how you treat other people.

    Yes, in my opinion. Once again, I ask you: who else's opinion am I supposed to have?

    Now apply the same reasoning to you claim of "reality". This isn't "reality" - it is your opinion. Your egotism is preventing you from applying your own reasoning to your own ideas. And inconsistency in philosophical arguments is always a flaw.

    No you're not. You expect me to believe that you don't know the difference between right and wrong? Sorry, Norsefire, but I'm not buying it. And claiming that you don't know doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions, either.

    Then there's nothing to discuss. Why are you posting in this thread?
     
  19. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, and for me the judgement of others, especially close friends and family, does mean something.

    However, for the lot of viscious criminals out there, the judgements of others are meaningless. Thus, morality doesn't stop anyone... it doesn't objectively exist. It has no power beyond the power we allow it to have. The way we stop these kinds of people isn't through morality...we don't throw morality at them, we stop them through force. Through might.



    I absolutely understand and acknowledge that humans have it as part of their psychology to be co-operative and charitable (part of the reason why I am a libertarian)

    However, that doesn't make it objective per se, because this psychology can be ignored, or interpreted in different ways (which is when people are still moral, in that they believe in morality, but disagree on what is moral and what is immoral)



    What I am saying is that IN REALITY morality is subjective. Nothing more. And that is the reality, it is true.



    Amoral doesn't mean ignorant of morality, it means not believing in morality. I don't believe in morals, not "I don't know the difference between right and wrong"

    Perhaps I spoke out of turn. I am moral, then, but not of the same morality as you. There, happy?
     
  20. Saven Registered Member

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    Actually morals do exist. You not having any doesn't change that.
     
  21. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Neat. What color are they?
     
  22. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    I think social vs non social is far more important than human vs non human.

    That relates more to how we own them. Where cat's have a chance to form a community they can and have greating rituals and what not.

    You don't talk with many cats. Mine seem to have little doubt about how much "higher" cats are than other animals, how much better their capacity for reason and intelligence is, how they are capable of superior moral reasoning etc.
     
  23. Saven Registered Member

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    What color are black holes? They're really not black; they're not really any color. But they exist.

    This is like asking "what color is farming?" Farming being the idea of an activity makes it not defineable by color. Farming still exists, however. How do we know? Because people do it.

    The same way that morals exist: because people have them. You cannot have something that doesn't exist... or you wouldn't actually have them.

    Case closed.
     

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