How do you learn spirituality?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by lightgigantic, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    The kind of linear, concept driven philosophical edifice that you are attempting to create in this thread.

    'You cannot attain it by thinking, you cannot grasp it by not thinking.' Or you could say, you cannot catch hold of the meaning of Zen by doing something about it, but equally, you cannot see into its meaning by doing nothing about it, because both are, in their different ways, attempts to move from where you are now, here, to somewhere else, and the point is that we come to an understanding of this, what I call suchness, only through being completely here. And no means are necessary to be completely here. Neither active means on the one hand, nor passive means on the other. Because in both ways, you are trying to move away from the immediate now. But you see, it's difficult to understand language like that. And to understand what all that is about, there is really one absolutely necessary prerequisite, and this is to stop thinking.

    -Alan Watts
     
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  3. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Think, Appreciate, Meditate, Hallucinate.
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I guess the issue is whether this is actually practical or possible
     
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  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    your fourth recommendation tends to cause problems
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Do you think there is anything to be learnt from having such a view (or do you think the beginning and end of such an outlook is just on the terms that it makes dealings in this world more amiable)
     
  9. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

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    I guess the lesson is seeing that everyone has inherent value in and of themselves (not just in relation to you). Thats what i take from it anyway.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You know when you are playing a sport, or getting into something that you are really good at, and you lose the sense of trying to figure things out? Your actions come spontaneously, without effort?
     
  11. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It's only problematic if the hallucination is accepted as objective truth.
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Is it that something can be valuable if it has no relation to us, or under such circumstances is the assignment of value fully dependant on some type of relationship with something greater than the valuer?
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    these things however are a refinement of mind, not an absence of mind.
     
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    the very word "hallucination" tends to fall in the folds of such a definiton - unless of course you advocate that all that exists is subjective reality 9thus everything can be equally disregarded) ....... which is also problematic
     
  15. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

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    Im not entirely sure what youre asking me to be honest, could you re-phrase?
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Sure

    If something has no ultimate connection or relationship to us, how is it possible to determine its inherant value?
    What would be the contribution of value of an object that has no connection to us?

    Or is it only possible for us to determine the value of something if we are aware of its realtionship or similarity to us?

    For instance I may not live in china and may not value chinese people - but then the next moment I rationalise that chinese people also have value because they are, after all people, and I am also a person - in other words value takes effect when I determine the similarity between myself and the object. And in the absence of forming such a concept it is impossible to raise one's view any higher than mere indifference.

    Anyway this is my view - I was just trying to ask you without spilling myself out, which is why the q seems a bit obscure.

    apologies

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  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    The object of Zen is so near we mostly ignore it. The standards of value we usually employ are created by culture and don't apply. Trying to convince you of it's value would be misleading, since it has no practical value. Everything truly wonderful in life has no practical value; a sunset, a summer day, a rainbow.
     
  18. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    There are many values that transcend cultural definitions - these can be immediate things like the value one places on one's own existence (given choice to live or die, given a normal environment, people would unanimously choose to live) or extended things like our inability to exist totally independant of the environment.
     
  19. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

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    Basically i work off the assumption that what ever im looking at has its own sense of value towards itself and treat accordingly. Now that assumption may sometimes be wrong, something i percieve to have value in relation to itself may not atall. However that still doesnt prevent me placing inherent worth on that person/creature/being.
    I guess its a case of projecting yourself into another's situation and asking yourself how you would want to be treated in their position.
    Even if you assume wrongly that they want to be treated with respect i still feel its a far better mistake to make than to treat someone with a lack of respect when in fact what they really wanted was to be treated compassionately.
    And as i already stated, even if someone has no self-value it still does not prevent me for placing value apon them

    Hope that makes sense!

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  20. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    in the folds of what definition?
     
  21. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    since hallucinations occur through the medium of our sense perception - the same medium that we perceive the objective world through - it becomes tricky to distinguish the two.
     
  22. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    heliocentric
    To use an example - what about french poodle owners who perceive the value in their dogs by grooming them in many ways which bear no value to a dog (giving them fashionable hair cuts and dressing them up in pants etc). In other words values systems that operate out of one's own need interests and concerns have the tendency to not tally and even disrupt the needs interests and concerns of others - hence such a value system is inherantly faulty
     
  23. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds like an opportunity for a 'teacher' of spirituality to provide education on how to distinguish between the two.
     

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