How is prayer supposed to work?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jennifer Murphy, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Dave

    You lied about what my response was.
    You claimed I said “magic” was how it works.
    When you could not show where I said “Magic” was how it works, you changed your lie to, it works “simply because”.
    What I actually said was “ because God allows it to work”, which is the basis of a theist perspective.

    You then responded with “ Well put.
    There's a term for something that only works on those predisposed to accept it. It's called confirmation bias”.

    To which I responded by saying that is an understandable reaction from an atheist. Because the atheist does not believe in, or accept God, which as a consequence, the atheist does not accept any information that informs one of God’s character. As far as the atheist is concerned, he or she, sees nothing that relates to God. Am I correct so far?

    So when I say “ because God allows it to”, I am responding from the the same platform of my perspective, like you do from yours.
    So what we are left is an atheist perspective, and a theist perspective.
    The atheist, by definition lacks a belief in God, and so, is not in the same position as someone who does not lack a belief in God.

    So when I said, the atheist cannot comprehend the theist reaction, because they are atheist.
    I am not attacking the atheist. I am basing it on the definition, in conjunction with this specific dialogue.

    In short, it doesn’t matter what I, or any theist on this planet says on this subject matter, the atheist is predisposed to not accepting. If the atheist should accept, then the person is not an atheist. An atheist cannot, by definition, ever accept God, or theism.

    Jan.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    From Wikipedia:

    Atheists who converted to Catholicism
     
    BlueSky likes this.
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  5. BlueSky Registered Senior Member

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    Yes atheists can and do convert all the time. I was one.

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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    "Magic" and "simply because" are the same thing. That is my point. The fact that you cannot grasp this - and I have to explain it multiple times in multiple ways - does not make me a liar. It makes you - well - unable to grasp a simple concept.

    When a question is "how" and the answer is "because" that is the criteria for magic. (note:small m not capital M).


    To be explicit:
    The appellation of magic is not due to your appeal to God; it is due to your appeal to "because.." as an answer to a how question.

    Or to put in tiny words - again: "because" does not answer "how".
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Gladly. Here's all the rope you need:

    Click the little arrow in the quote header to be taken directly to the passage that I am quoting you from.

    And now you will admit that I did not make that up. You will admit that - in answer to a "how" question, you answered with a "because" - as I have had to re-assert about five times for your benefit and no one else's - certainly no to the benefit of the thread.

    If you were a man who understood honest dialogue, you would now be saying mea culpa. Hey, miracles can happen.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Jennifer, I'm painfully aware of how much this thread has degenerated. You asked "how", and you got "because". You can see why there will be no meaningful answer to your question - it's not that the answer won't sit well with you; it's that there will never come an actual answer at all.

    We have multiple threads here, thousands of posts long, in which the resident theists, and Jan in particular as the most vocal, have dodged repeated direct questions about what God is, if there's any evidence, or anything else.

    You can expect hundreds of posts of "All you have to do to believe is clap your hands." and "Can you repeat the question please, I'm pretending I didn't hear you."

    They just don't have any answers.

    Sorry. That's unfair. They just don't have any rational answers.


    Do not take my word for it. The beauty of scientific analysis is that the data is all there, extant, for you to examine yourself, without bias.
     
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You are extremely dishonest.

    Anyway, you said you can’t answer a “how” question with “because”. So explain this, what you conveniently left out.

    Q. How did Usain Bolt run so fast?
    A. Because he trained hard.

    Prayer works because God allows it to work.
    It doesn’t work any other way.

    Jan.
     
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It’s degenerated for you, because you can’t deal with real responses. If it doesn’t fit into into you narrow purview, you get mardy, then you start with attacks. Pathetic!

    Jan.
     
  14. BlueSky Registered Senior Member

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    159

    I have not read the entire thread. If you wondering “how” God answers prayer, there really is not one. No knows or understands how such a supernatural entity can do what it says he can do in Bible. It’s a complete mystery.

    It’s tells us why, and when ( for past people’s of the earth ) and for what reasons he would answer. He tells us many things about prayer in scripture, but to actually describe a detailed scientific reason for “how” no one knows this. This fact does not negate its reality however.

    God loves to give good things those who love him and who know Him and if it fits within the overal plan of redemption. He likes to give good things to obedient children, not unlike how we deal with our kids. We don’t always get what we want because he sees a bigger picture, like an adult. I said no to countless things my kids asked for over the years for good reason!

    The bible tells us God is a spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light. The answers are there, it’s just some people don’t like them.

    This might help. From https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-prayer.html

    It’s probable the best shortest answer could provide. As I said before, large books are written on the subject. It works, I’ve seen it happen to me and friends.

    Question: "What is prayer?"

    Answer:
    The most basic definition of prayer is “talking to God.” Prayer is not meditation or passive reflection; it is direct address to God. It is the communication of the human soul with the Lord who created the soul. Prayer is the primary way for the believer in Jesus Christ to communicate his emotions and desires with God and to fellowship with God.

    Prayer can be audible or silent, private or public, formal or informal. All prayer must be offered in faith (James 1:6), in the name of the Lord Jesus (John 16:23), and in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26). As the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia puts it, “Christian prayer in its full New Testament meaning is prayer addressed to God as Father, in the name of Christ as Mediator, and through the enabling grace of the indwelling Spirit” (“Prayer” by J. C. Lambert). The wicked have no desire to pray (Psalm 10:4), but the children of God have a natural desire to pray (Luke 11:1).

    Prayer is described in the Bible as seeking God’s favor (Exodus 32:11), pouring out one’s soul to the Lord (1 Samuel 1:15), crying out to heaven (2 Chronicles 32:20), drawing near to God (Psalm 73:28, KJV), and kneeling before the Father (Ephesians 3:14).

    Paul wrote, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6–7). Worry about nothing; pray about everything.

    Everything? Yes, God wants us to talk with Him about everything. How often should we pray? The biblical answer is “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17). We should keep a running conversation going with God all day long. Some find the ACTS formula of prayer helpful, but there is really no special formula for how to pray in the Bible. We should just do it. We can pray under any and all circumstances. Prayer develops our relationship with God and demonstrates our trust and utter dependence upon Him.

    Prayer is the Christian’s way of communicating with God. We pray to praise God and thank Him and tell Him how much we love Him. We pray to enjoy His presence and tell Him what is going on in our lives. We pray to make requests and seek guidance and ask for wisdom. God loves this exchange with His children, just as we love the exchange we have with our children. Fellowship with God is the heart of prayer. Too often we lose sight of how simple prayer is really supposed to be.

    When we make petitions to God, we let God know exactly where we stand and what we would like to see happen. In our prayers, we must admit that God is greater than we are and ultimately knows what is best in any given situation (Romans 11:33–36). God is good and asks us to trust Him. In prayer, we say, essentially, “Not my will, but your will be done.” The key to answered prayer is praying according to the will of God and in accordance with His Word. Prayer is not seeking our own will but seeking to align ourselves with the will of God more fully (1 John 5:14–15; James 4:3).

    The Bible contains many examples of prayer and plenty of exhortations to pray (see Luke 18:1; Romans 12:12; and Ephesians 6:18). God’s house is to be a house of prayer (Mark 11:17), and God’s people are to be people of prayer: “Dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love” (Jude 1:20–21).
     
  15. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Could you define what you mean by "worry"?
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    If the OP had asked "How does Bolt run so fast? Does he run 10 miles a day? Does he eat raw eggs? Does he train in a gym? How long might it take"
    Then "because he trains" would not be sufficient.

    And she did. The OP has asked specific questions about how it actually works, in the eyes of theists. Not about what God does, but about what the praying person can expect to happen.

    Your response - specifically to the question of how it works (not how God works but how prayer works) - dodges all that with a "because it just does" hand-waving. It does nothing for the OP. The OP was clear and verbose about what kind of "how" she is looking for.

    It's degenerated for the OP. She was clear, both on what she was asking, and that your responses are not useful.

    If this defensive position isn't just about your ego, then we could both stop wasting phosphor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    OK, and then ... what happens?
    The OP's questions revolve around what does the praying accomplish?
     
  18. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Of course, those "answers" cannot be shown to be correct.

    This is an assumption of yours, not a fact.
     
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Don’t get your panties in a twist.

    Jan.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It’s not my quote.
    Pathetic!
    Not to mention desparate.

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    Jan.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Paaaaaaathetic.!!!!!
    You’re just desparate to come out on top.
    Aren’t you?
    You’ve no integrity

    The OP was designed by a trickster and a troll, who scarpered the moment she realised she’d been nobbled.
    At least you don’t run. I’ll give you that.

    Jan.
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Oh certainly. Anyone who asks reasonable questions about God must be a trickster and a troll.

    An observation: You are always on the lookout for motives. You perceive threats behind every corner. It defines your participation here.

    The beauty of rational thought is that there is nothing to fear. And no one even has to take anyone's word for it, because facts are out there to find, not locked in someone's heart.

    I do not fear motives. Facts are facts. It matters naught why they ask their questions; valid answers are immune to motive.


    Further: I'm OK with you calling out 'pathetic' repeatedly. It stands as testament to the fact that you have given up addressing the discussion.

    The "just because" gaff has been thoroughly dismantled. Good riddance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Why are you so angry?

    I haven’t given up at all.
    Your whole attitude in this thread has been pathetic.

    Jan.
     

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