How much of whatsupyall/musclemans's posts do u comprehend?

0%, did read em at the start though now i just look at the active topics and leave this religion bit

 

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I put 0%.
...but when I'm bored and I want some amusement, I'll read muscleman's newest posts.

Other than that, I scroll on by...

 

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Marc (and muscleman):

How bout this? Since Atheists and theists don't have compatable ideologies, maybe we could give some hypotheitical assertions with the use of "if". I will put an "if" where I have the thought that this "if" is unrefutable, yet theists seem to misunderstand or disagree that this "if" exists. Lets try it.

Remeber that the explanations therein are in no way to be used as proof or evidence that god does not exist. So please do NOT answer with a statement of its irrelevance (like to say that god DOES exist so the statement is irrelevant). These are things I assume that we will both agree on.

IF god did not exist and is only the product of imagination, attempted explanations, and rumor, THEN wouldn't this explain why there are many many religions of all types and that even the most closely related religions seem to fight bloody battles against land which they think is their?

IF god is all powerful, THEN don't you think that god would need not be patronized with prayer and worship, not to mention whole lives spent in making god happy (he is all powerful, he can make himself happy) so they can god to heaven?

IF god knows the future AND the garden of eden existed, THEN he would know that if he put the tree of knowlege in the garden of eden, adam and eve would eat from it?

IF the tower of babel posed a threat to the heavens hundreds of years ago, THEN god would prevent modern and most definately much taller buildings from being made?

Ill leave these at that and see how you think of them.

 

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LOVED IT

IF God exists and is not the product of human imagination wouldn't this explain why there are many rellgions of all types battling each other over all kinds of crap? Would this mean that man in the Bible [Genesis] turned away from God and pursued his own knowledge [tree of knowledge of good and evil], thus, inventing his own religons and even science to explain what he couldn't understand?

IF God was all-powerful and he knows the nature of his creation; wouldn't he want them to follow a certain path so as to have a better life in the next existence (to make us and himself happy)? Wouldn't he want us to look to him and his perfect way and say that is how I want to be? Isn't that what worship is? Praising God for who He is and who you would like to emulate?

IF God knows the future and he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him [eat from tree or pursue knowledge - whatever]. Would he just turn them into some mindless drones and let them do what he wants or would he surrender his will and let them make their decision?

IF not even Voyager 2 has a chance of reaching heaven why would God stop us from even going to the moon? Could it be that the tower of Babel represented man's unity against God? Could it be that the tower of Babel was some pyramid or ziggurat dedicated to pagan gods?

Could this mean that French reads the Bible much too literally?
Could this mean French doesn't understand the Bible? Could this mean French doesn't understand God's nature?
Does the name Frencheneez mean that French speaks french?

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Re: LOVED IT

Oooh, this statement is helping me think about the way I perceive fate vs free will, such as: is it free will if someone knows with 100% certainty (in this case, god) what decision that person will make?

By the way, is god really a he?

 

You should read some of what's up y'all's posts. You didn't vote did you?

If I know that when you see a truck coming and you step into the road it will splatter you like pasta sauce and you step into the road would I have made you do it?

God was incarnate as a man. However God is of a triune nature. Who am I to attribute a gender to the great I Am? I always strive to begin with capitals when I refer to God. Do you notice?

 

Yes, I do notice. However, I do not think the word "god" is a proper noun, since many religions have all sorts of gods. Or, when you refer to god in the proper, are you referring to the the Christian god? In this case, I see why you use "god" in the proper.

 

So you are accepting that destiny and free will not only coexist but are inextricably entwined with each other? After all, it is this same sort of "predetermined free will" that defines destiny: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency (from Merriam-Webster Online). Or would you rather revise this definition to be: "...always held to be an irresistable power or agency"?

 

Yes I accept this. Sounds strange huh? The thing is God knows what you will do but that doesn't mean He makes you do it. That is one of the ultimate sacrifices he made for mankind - for us to have our free will. The Inspector [member of sciforums.com] made me aware of this. Hadn't thought of it much before. So God is all powerful and all knowing but not all doing. You can look at the story in the Bible where God let the Devil do what he wanted with Job and his family.

 

MarcAC:

I kinda expected you to directly answer those NON-rhetorical questions I gave you.

"IF God exists and is not the product of human imagination wouldn't this explain why there are many rellgions of all types battling each other over all kinds of crap?"

No it wouldn't. If god is the product of imagination, THAT explains why there are so many different views. The imagination can create almost anything.

"Would this mean that man in the Bible [Genesis] turned away from God and pursued his own knowledge "

Why would god expect such stupid creatures as adam and eve to understand morals and respect BEFORE they had eaten from the tree of knowlege? After we ate from the tree of knowlege, don't you think we would be able to understand a lot MORE, not less? Why would people turn away from god when they know he exists?

"Wouldn't he want us to look to him and his perfect way and say that is how I want to be?"

So god needs us so that he can be happy? I doubt a god would need such small petty creatures as us.

"Would he just turn them into some mindless drones and let them do what he wants or would he surrender his will and let them make their decision?"

That is not the only solution. He could have removed the tree of knowlege in the first place, or he could have allowed them to eat....

"Could it be that the tower of Babel was some pyramid or ziggurat dedicated to pagan gods?"

Why did he knock down babel yet did NOT knock down the pyramids or ziggurat? Plainly, the pyramids were built in worship of egyptian gods AND the worship of their petty human king.

"Could this mean that French reads the Bible much too literally?
Could this mean French doesn't understand the Bible? Could this mean French doesn't understand God's nature?"

Perhaps, but you aren't helping that much in that case.

"Does the name Frencheneez mean that French speaks french?"

Nope. That name is completely random.

"If I know that when you see a truck coming and you step into the road it will splatter you like pasta sauce and you step into the road would I have made you do it? "

If you forced the truck to come, and you forced "me" to step in front of it, then yes it is your fault.

IF you knew that "I" wanted to commit suicide and that I WOULD step in front of a car if it came, AND you CREATED and FORCED a truck to pass by, THEN it IS DEFINATELY your fault that I died, especially If you created me and my nature.

God KNEW that Adam and eve would eat from the tree if there was a tree there. HE creates the tree with the knowlege that they have no choice but to disobey him (because he already knows they will).

Of course, if you do not understand the fact that predestination makes freewill impossible, then you might have to disagree with me.

"Sounds strange huh?"

Just because It sounds strange in no way makes it true.

"The thing is God knows what you will do but that doesn't mean He makes you do it."

I (and noone else) ever tried to say or imply that god MADE us do what we will do. BUT our point was that if god knows exactly what we will do and when we will do it, then freewill cannot exist.

If god KNOWS what we will do, how many chioces do we have? Can we possibly make the CHOICE to go against gods knowlege of the future?

 

I have a growing suspicion that muscleman and whatsup are both the same person...

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

 

"I have a growing suspicion that muscleman and whatsup are both the same person... "

Of COURSE they are! The new guy RESPONDS to muscleman!

 

?!?!?!?!?

Originally posted by Frencheneesz

Do you see how you responded here? Give my post a proper perusal and then think of a reply. Did you see my explanation?

I have no idea what God was thinking. I can't say. What I can say is that before Adam and Eve deviated they did not know what evil was. They only knew good and they didn't even know that good was good. Get it? Maybe God realised that we wouldn't be able to handle the knowledge that we gained? What do you think - have we made the best use of all the knowledge we have gained over our existence? They knew what God told em and what they shouldn't do. But then the Evil One came and duped em. And in light of your question; man - as with you here - found it hard to accept the fact that he is a far lesser being than God. So He pursues his own knowledge so as to attain equality with God - now we end up even denying he exists as a part of that futile attempt.

Such is the nature of God's love for us. You doubt too much.

Part of this is addressed above. These scenarios have been presented to me numerous times. What if he wanted us to 'eat' eventually? Just in case you forgot - how has man handles the knowledge he has gained throughout his existence?

Remember The Exodus from Egypt? Guess He had better lesson plans than knocking down a few buildings.

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I don't see anyone worshipping Ra or Osiris. Do you?

First step to understanding the Bible is getting one and reading it.

Cool. Possible though. Right?

In light of all the above. Freewill is the power to act according to YOUR wishes. Man this has been addressed so many times it is ridiculous.
Look at all the blue writing. You will also see it in other thesists posts.

 

I comprehend his posts alright, but his thinking is so childish and closed minded that I often ignore them. The best part of the whole deal is that he accuses everyone else of doing everything he is doing (ie. speaking unscientifically, providing unsubstantiated evidence, being closed minded etc.)

Christ, this guy's worse than tony1.

 

dont let xev hear u say that cause she is in love with tony1

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LOL, unscientific? Close minded? Im not the one who came out with the idea that nature is "Luck" or "Chance". And Im not the one that said "Knowing something in advance means Establishing things in advance". If that is not irrational, illogic, close minded, and stupid, then those words are myths...

 

"Im not the one who came out with the idea that nature is "Luck" or "Chance". "

Neither am I.

""Knowing something in advance means Establishing things in advance". "

I suggest you watch Minority Report. If you see the future, and know something will happen, that what is to keep it from happening? The only way it would not happen is if you directly interfered to keep it from happening. Physics states that if one knows the exact location and movement of all particles in the universe at any one instant in time one can predict what the universe will look like at any instant after that. There is a difference between pretending to know the future and actually knowing it. If you knew with full certainty (as God supposedly does) what will happen tomorrow it will happen so long as you don't interfere to prevent it from happening.

And yes, you are still the most closed-minded person I have met.

 

Xelios, while I agree with you that muscleman is a close-minded individual (sort of a "my way or you're stupid and wrong" attitude), I do have an issue with this:

Are you disregarding quantum mechanics here? Quantum mechanics disproves Laplacean determinism.

 

MarcAC:

"Did you see my explanation?"

Yes, I saw it in your attempt to parrallel my questions with Theist retorts, however I did expect a direct reference.

"I have no idea what God was thinking. I can't say. "

Are you saying that human logic may be fundementally flawed and that we simply CANNOT understand why he did these things? IF we assume that human logic works correctly, then god must have flawed logic.

"now we end up even denying he exists as a part of that futile attempt. "

It is unsettling that you don't even believe that us Atheists even have legitimate reservations about god. Do you truely think that we know god exsists yet we choose to lie to you or deny it?

"have we made the best use of all the knowledge we have gained over our existence? "

This question is opinion. I would answer with no, but part of that opinion consists of my opinion that our knowlege created religion and that that whole endevour was a massive waste of time resources, and lives. So I don't know if that holds any meaning to you. I do, however, think we have used our knowlege quite well indeed.

"I don't see anyone worshipping Ra or Osiris. Do you?"

Good point and it is consistent with your ideology, yet it does not prove anything to ME, given that my ideas are just as consistent with my ideology.

"Cool. Possible though. Right? "

I suppose. Are you hinting that god is possible, but may turn out not to exist? I DO believe that god is possible, contrary to what you may think. I just also believe that the probablity is far too low for me to have "faith" in it.

"Freewill is the power to act according to YOUR wishes."

By that definition, freewill and determinism can coexist. Yet, choice is left out, which is what most people think of as freewill. By this logic the ONLY thing that can happen is that people WILL follow their wishes.

 

What's the Pro?

Then you do* think that logic is universal. You have to with such an argument. I think when you try to use logic in a single dimensional sense... like you guys do... you will find contradictions. And human logic working correctly is quite an assumption... it has yet to be perfected. What usually happens when human logic meets an obstacle? What is the usual outcome?

Don't worry... I was reffering to mankind. Ever heard of the subconcious? Keep that in mind.

So you see the futility of us arguing over it then? Good.

Nothing of the sort. Interesting belief. You are not atheist. You are agnostic. Well good for you.

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You are closer yet.

?... Lata