How we behave

WES MORRIS IS A FUCKING LOSER

His Stupidity and ignorance is a danger to all the decent people interested in science here

Spread the word

 

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I can see where u are coming from. It is what I used to believe before I thought about it further.

Explain irrational with an example

Again, I don't believe somebody can do anything they want when they want. It is a trick nature plays on us. By the way, one question: do u believe animals have free will?

OK I believe that we don't know exactly what we are going to do due to 2 things. One is hidden variables where the brain is programmed too complex for us to understand. there is a difference between just knowing that we ARE programmed by genetics and knowing what we are going to do at any time. I believe the latter will never be solved.
The second one is a little more subtle. U mention free will and randomness as if they are the same thing. They aren't. Free will means we have control over our actions. If there is any randomness at all in our behaviour, I believe it has nothing to do with free will. I think any randomness there could possibly be (due to say Quantum process) are buffered out so that they play no role at all in our behaviour. Otherwise if random processe got too large they would be an evolutionary disadvantage.

Well think about it. Why couldn't it be? What makes u think u HAVE free will? Because u feel it?

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Ah its just that prick can't argue properly so he has to throw a tantrum to take attention away from that fact.

 

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There is nature and nuture, both genes and our environments play a role in how we behave. In a sense you could say nobody really wants to die, but there is suicide, so obviously the environment can overcome our genetic desire to survive and pass on our genes.

 

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I'm exposed, oh no!

Now I'll never be able to spread my genes!

(you know, because I post on sciforums to (my behavior mind you) in order to assist in the task of spreading my genes, and since now I've been exposed and all - my behavior of posting here is in vain. looks like I'll have to find a new reproduction strategy (note that this is a sarcastic message further exposing the stupidity of the hypothesis that all behavior is only to 'pass on genes'))

How will I behave... now?

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I sure hope not. Imagine more of u in this world. I guess your one of those mutants (with low intelligence) that evolution produces every now and again providing genetic diversity just in case the environment has changed. Well people are still very intelligent so mutants will not last long.

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Like a fucking kid i guess

 

May I just say both John Connellan and Wesmorris are both acting like 5 year olds at this moment? Several times this childish argument could have ended and the thread could have continued with its discussing, yet both of you feel the need to have the last word. So how about this? You are both acting very inappropriatly and should stop this babbling right now? How about both of you take this oppurtunity to stop this stupidity and continue the topic. And its really easy to, just do not reply anymore with insulting comments towards each other, just stop it right here.


Hmm, anyways seems like you 2 are the perfect example of human behavior. Been reading up on Thomas Hobbes and its quite amazing how close to the truth he comes about human nature. As seen and the recent posts people are at a constant fight to show superiority over each other. I suppose its instincts really, no one can truly say that they've never been in a fight to show another person their strengths and greatness. Maybe we should just live as ants and bees (Thomas).

Nope, they act on their instincts not free will. At times their instincts seem so comprehensible that it seems as if the animal is thinking on its own but in actuality, the animal is either obeying a direct command or relying on its natural instincts.

 

Well first of all I have to say that u are pretty much in agreement with me then Vortox, but I definitely disagree with u saying that I am acting like a 5 year old.
If u looked back through the thread u would see that I DID give Wes a chance to revert to the topic but he insisted on refusing and continued with his insulting waffle.

 

Well that's fine, but the point is you continued and got sucked into his game and started acting like a child as well.

As you can see. Even now you are trying to get the last word on Wes and allow yourself to be the "winner". Why don't you just drop it now and continue with the original discussion?

 

Excellent observation Mr. V. I think you've summed up the entire purpose of this thread.

Teen angst is an ugly thing, no?

 

The first few signs of a problem:

Now to the present posts:

Funny that this idiot's idea of "giving someone a chance" is phrased as follows:

WTF? Hehe. Yeah that's the way to get a thread back on track moron.

You were by no means "winning" the argument, but then in typical assfuck cuntlike fashion, say the bolded shit above in an attempt to "give me a chance to get the thread back on track?"????????????? IDIOT. You are the cunt who derailed it. I told you exactly when and how you did it. You even said "NOW I REALISE I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE ACTED LIKE THAT WAS UR ANSWER".

THAT WAS MY COMPLAINT TO BEGIN WITH YOU FUCKING CUNT.

If you would have just said "my bad, I'm just a little frustrated", boom, it'd have been over, but instead you post shit like:

AND YOU CLAIM TO HAVE A SCIENTIFIC FUCKING ARGUMENT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

MORON

If you would have just said:

We wouldn't have a problem.

Instead you insisted on your childish bullshit. So I told you:

To which you so maturely retorted:

As I had already told you I have no interest in discussing this shit with you, you bullshit childish blather above simply annoyed me so I retorted likewise:

It's par for the course and at that point I really had no interest in continuing this conversation. It's later now and I don't care as much so...

If you'd like to pretend all this little tiff never happened and continue, I'm willing. I'll rewind to where I suggested that you to drop the attitude. Can you though, at this time... see why I made that suggestion?

 

if free will is tied directly to the ability to think or reason, then this would seem to support the above:

source: http://www.emory.edu/COLLEGE/ANTHROPOLOGY/CHB/members/former/rilling.html

so then, it would seem that [due to the structure of our brains] humans are the only animals to exhibit free will [if it exists]. so where are we left? back at square 1.25 :bugeye:

 

Well I don't think u were getting anywhere in the argument

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By 'winning I meant that so far nobody had produced any evidence against the theory so in my mind that is why u were getting frustrated. The bold stuff in that post did not matter too much as it was a prelude to what was after it. That still stands. Even though I answered with 'fraid not' that was not directed at u. I asked a question: 'randomly?' for the sake of asking a question because I was a little frustrated that nobody was asking me any decent questions that I could answer and so then I decided to answer. I can't see why it is such a big complaint and why there was need to go ahead and personally attack me with words such as retarded, moron, idiot, cunt, bullshit and various other profanities.

Now if thats what u thought I meant in that post then I suppose I CAN see where u were coming from. But I am also willing to forget about this stuff and continue with a proper debate.

 

My God, if u only knew the purpose of this thread then u would be having a proper debate with us instead of popping in every now and again to fuel an argument that never involved u. To be honest I wouldn't even waste my time arguing with you though as u are just scum.

 

I can't be bothered to read the entire thread, so I am sure I am repeating something here.

1. Behaviour is for a large part under the influence of cultural evolution and not biological evolution. Then most behaviours then to be a mix of both.

2. There is genetic variation within a population. Some variation undoubtely allows for dubious 'proper evolutionary behaviour'.

Hence behaviour can easily be present without an evolutonary advantage.

 

A tiny little piece of evidence would be nice.

Wesmorris,

Don't you see that you can only notice all these indications because you are a human?
You know, if there was no such thing as translators you would be saying only english speaking humans can display this ability(maybe not, but by your own logic you should).
Its so easy to analyse your own species, but because you can't communicate other species you assume their heads are empty.

My point with the alien thing was what I just talked about.
The thing is aliens wouldn't know you were wondering what to do with your career. How could they unless they could read your mind or ask you?
Just like you wouldn't know if animals thought about and planned migrations in their head for weeks before setting off. Not saying they do, but I bet they feel like they decide to migrate or at least feel like they decide to follow their friends.

Again, an outside observer would not see indications for that "equipment" in humans from merely watching them behave.

Yes, there is.
Your "self" becoming what it became had nothing to do with "you". I say "you" because the "you" I'm talking about doesn't exist. Its some hypothetical magic all powerful super creature that you would be if you had free will.
You are crafted by genes and experience, we agreed on this. You seem to think your free will can shape the experience side of things.
I agree choices you can make will shape the experiences you have but you are already crafted to make whatever choices you make from genetics and previous experience that did not involve your choices. The first time you made a decision as a little baby wes(that also had a goatee, I imagine), that decision was a product of your genes and experience. And so on. You're inclined to make each decision you make for reasons you did not control. Technically nobody has any control over anything.

See above.

Follow directions above.
There would be reasons you chose whatever out of the multiple choices. If I was there saying "use your free will:smug crossed arms:" it would alter what you were going to pick, but ironically thats just another piece of stimulai guiding you to a decision, and you still wouldn't be displaying free will at all.

No offense wes but your idea of free will is very basic and there wouldn't be a single organism that can move that doesn't display it.
A cheetah decides to give up chasing if a gazelle is too far away, it made that choice, another time it might decide to chase a little further. There would be reasons for this however, like it might be extra hungry or bla bla bla but it definately feels as though its in control of its actions, like we do.

Honestly I think my no-extra-love for humans allows me to look at them more objectively than most people.
I don't hate the human animal, its inherently on par with all other animals. When surrounded by people disrespecting other animals and overly respecting humans I feel the need to knock them down a peg.
Like in some of the race threads loitering around you'll notice people resort to white people bashing when faced with white supremacists. Thats the kind of position I feel I'm in often and to more extreme degrees.
Also as a human its instinctual for me to get angry at other humans, we're a combative tribal species. Where as animals are to be looked at as a food source, which doesn't directly imply negative connotations, in fact it never should. Most hunter and gather humans worship all animals and after killing one will pray for it and do some respectfull ritual. Its not normal to hate animals, it is normal to occassionally hate other people.
Some species hate other species, but that is because they are competing with them(lions/hyenas) or threatened by them(lions/buffalo). We aren't seriously threatened by any animal nor is any animal offering us adequate competition.
Lions don't hate buffalo, and almost seem offended when buffalo attack them.
Lions do hate other lions from other prides.
And we are similarly supposed to hate other people from outside our circle of friends and family.
I think these days people are restricted from hating people, some even believe they don't hate other people after a having a huge taboo put on the concept during their upbringing and some take it out on animals, where the law and taboo is loose.

I believe it doesn't seem like a big deal to you.
I think this is because you aren't looking at the whole picture, you need to step back a few paces.
Thats how it honestly seems to me.
You are saying you can choose between this and that, but you need to understand you could never really be in control of what you will choose at any given time. You've been programmed by a combination of genetics and experience to react in certain ways at certain times.

Similarly I think you are looking at the idea, that all behaviour is related to passing on genes, too litterally and simply.
No one is denying all the behaviours humans obviously display and the direct function of each behaviour.
The point is, in some way each behaviour will stem from some instinct that was crafted to assist in survival and breeding.
You know, you really could give me any imaginable example.
The suicide one had me a tiny bit flustered. But it could be something like getting people to pity you. Like that urge to make others pity you would have been a beneficial strategy to make others help you, thus increase chances of living and increase chances of breeding.
Not sure exactly but thats the kind of thing I mean.
The essence of each behaviour revolves around increasing survival or breeding chances. This is not to say each behaviour is directly aimed at getting laid. Its a little more complex than that.

 

Yes I think u ARE repeating things that people have said before

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but I am rejecting that theory and suggesting that it can be entirely biological evolution.

Yes I have stated before that i agree there mutations made all the time. Without them evolution could not exist. However we are looking at the big picture and over a large enough timescale. I am sure u agree that even though there are mutations out there, all of our bodily organs from our limbs to our kidneys are intricately developed to be of an evolutionary advantage.

Now evolution always 'tests' the current environment by producing mutants (unwittingly) andf these may or may not survive the curren environment. If they don't then those genes get taken out. Eventually there is a stable phenotype as long as there is a stable environment where everything in a body can be explained as being conducive to the spreading of genes.

Now I am suggesting that our behaviour is an entirely biological thing. It is not mysterious and does not have a soul. As such it is also 'shaped' by evolution and so everything in our behaviour is geared in some indirect way to the passing of our genes.

 

Just to explain an example from Lou (because it involves my favourite animal!):

The cheetah gives up at almost always the correct mathematical distance from the gazelle. How does it know this? Because the subconscious is actually a very efficient calculator (it is what wakes u up in the morning just before your alarm goes off!). It calculates that the gazelle is too far away and it is genetically designed to send a signal making the cheetah not want to chase the animal any more.

Basically this cheetah is descended from a long line of cheetahs which did not waste energy by running after hopeless causes all the time. Now the cheetah feels it has made a choice to not chase the gazelle but it is a trick of nature.

This last bit I feel is the problem everyone has. I believe choices all through natural history have been programmed by our makeup and when u think about it, they HAVE to have been. Just like evolution HAS to happen to a replicating organism.

 

I know that you are suggesting this, but it is obvious that some behaviour is cultural.

Such as going to church on sunday, voting for a president, reading a book, giving a kiss on each cheek when you meet someone (or not), wiping your ass with toilet paper, sit in a chair, drive a car, speak french, speak english, mass cult suicides, britney spears wannabe'ism, etc etc. Basically everything you learned to do since you were a small toddler.

These behaviours can be interlaced with instinct. You want to give this particular girl a kiss on the cheek instead of a hand shake, because she feel something moving in your loins or whatever.

But I would say you would need to prove in some kind of way that there are no behaviours that are not genetically determined to make your point.

 

Of course you conveniently forget here that cheetahs need to learn how to hunt. They do this from watching their parents, playing, and practice hunting.

Their are some genetic predetermined factors here, such as the urge to hunt and the possession of a body of a hunter, but hunting needs to be learned.

 

But what is learnt isn't behaviour. U have to realise there is ALSO an urge to learn and that urge causes the young cheetahs to focus on their mother alone (it doesn't necessarily learn the rational way by watching ANY cheetah hunt). This is all geneticall programmed into them.

Now obviously we as a species are genetically 'designed' to learn things very quickly and use the information in novel ways. U have to realise that Im not saying we are robots! After just doing a shit, a monkey has an urge to wipe its arse ok? Now it doesn't know of the dangers of infection if it doesn't tdo this (like we do) but it has been programmed to have this urge because its advantageous. Now if it finds a big smooth leaf it realises this would be perfect for the job. It has adapted in its own lifetime to fulfill the genetic urges lying behind its behaviour.

Is it a little clearer what I'm trying to say now???