I belive

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Richilin, Jun 22, 1999.

  1. Richilin Guest

    Im back for a while. Flash! What you´re wrighting is so stupid... But I understand your point. But the disipulos(spanish, i dont know what it is in english, but i bet you understand me)were different persons, with different backgrounds... For an example, Luke was a doctor, and of course he discribed the situations in another way than for an example Matthew. And it just makes me more sure that the bible tells the truth. Would you consider it to be true if the evangelies were syncronized? Oh no, than something would be really wrong. Different people tells a story different, although its the same story. The bible is not written by God, its INSPIRED by Him.
    Hoping you´ll find the truth someday. You´re obviously looking for it.
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  3. Lori Registered Senior Member

    It's the BIG picture that is inspired here. The big picture is PERFECT, and not mistaken. Flash, you know as well as I that you are LOOKING to disprove the Bible as many others are, but it is futile. The message is the same, whether you're reading from the KJV, or some watered-down "Bible for dummies" like I have. It's exactly the same. And with all of the contradictions that you have in mind, the message is still the same, and it is the exact message that God inspired, and that He is desparately trying to get you to pay attention to. Why do you think that the Bible has 5 different interpretations of the Gospel? For added confusion? No, to drive home the same exact message. Which you are ignoring because the little details don't match up correctly. Let me put it this way...they're f'ing close enough.

    God loves you and so do I!
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  5. Flash Registered Senior Member

    shouldn't a document that was divinely
    inspired by an omniscient and omnipotent
    deity be as clear as possible??????????
    Lori, the message is the same?????????
    what about the contradictions of the bible
    you read in Exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill
    and Leviticus 24:17 he that killeth any man
    shall surely be put to death
    THEN Exodus 32:27 Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
    I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

    how about this:

    James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,
    neither tempteth he any man."
    THEN it says:
    Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
    You know there are tons and tons more contradictions such as these... the message is clear?????????? How so??????????
    and shouldn't it alllllllll be clear???
    ok, so maybe the easter story has a lot of
    details that do not match up and shouldn't matter?? I guess... alright..
    I could give that to you all...but really..
    the messages are not as clear as some of you
    are trying to make them out to be... so then
    how do you know what is right and what is wrong... I really hate this word..but how
    do you know what is sin and what is not
    SEEING how the bible contradicts itself??
    sooooooooooooooo many contradictions...
    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... could it be
    that is because it is not all true?!?!?!
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  7. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member


    Ka-ching!!!! Bullseye...

    I am; therefore I think.
  8. Plato Registered Senior Member


    be very careful here, when you say only to look at the big picture all firm ground can be lost ! Because actually what you are saying is not to take the bible for what it says but for what it represents so then the question follows, what does it represent ? What authority is going to tell us that ? Or do we have to find it for ourselves ? And if so then why use the bible any way ?

    we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
  9. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Ok, what about an arguement of idealism vs reality? The way I tend to think about things...is that there is an ideal, which is perfect, and which is the way in which God intended us to live. Not tempted by sin, nor committing any sin...ie. thou shalt not kill. Then there is reality, and the circumstance into which we are all born. We WILL sin, there IS sin, and we have to "deal" with it somehow...ie. if someone breaks into your house in the wee hours of the morning with a butcher knife and wanting to cut your throat, what to do? So, in essence, I think that the Bible addresses two different sets of circumstance; one being an "ideal", and the other being "reality". Is that valid?

    God loves you and so do I!
  10. MaTTo Registered Senior Member

    Richilin, *lmao*, you really believe the Earth was created in 7 days?

    I'm a bit pissed off here so please excuse my typos and the temper.

    If God is the most powerful thing in the universe, then why in the hell did it take him 7 days to make this measley little rock? And it only took one damn day to make the sun, something 109 times greater in diameter! It should have tooken him a little more than one day.

    One thing to think about that I haven't heard anyone else mentioned in arguments over creation vs. evolution...

    The sun, stars, the planet people walked on, the moon, life on the planet. That's all we could see during the time of the early bible. Coincidently that's all the bible says God created? I think not!

    And, further more, it says the Earth was created in 7 days.



    The bible clearly says that it means what it means, because it's supposed to be from God. And, it SAYS, that the Earth was created in 7 days!

    HOLY SHIT *literally*

    Also, how about the dinosaurs? Huh? How about them? They were here waaaaaayyyyyy long before us. And the bible failed to mention them, although it named everything a human could observe during the time it was written, and lacks everything that a human couldn't.

    Do you think volcanos erupt just for the hell of it? Nature just decides to give out a little choas now and then? No. They are examples of how the earth was created.

    It baffles me to see all of us arguing over if there is a God, and if there was a God, I'm sure everyone would be a believer, including the crazies and (all) the scientists.

    Scientists: I need your expert oppinion, if the Earth was created in 7 days, couldn't science account for it? If it was all made in 7 damned days, then through a serious of testing, science could prove that it was!?

    Anything I mention further would be pretty much a wasted effort and I direct you to Boris' post in Evolution Vs. Creation Part 1. READ IT.

    All I can say is, if you've heard all the facts, and you still believe, you make me sick and I suggest you get therapy or somethign because you are NUTS.

  11. MaTTo Registered Senior Member

    Also, to the religious crazys, give the movie "Planet of The Apes" a try. I won't use a science fiction film as a complete basis to proving creation is false, but it's something worthy mentioning. There really is some important issues in this film that I've just begun to love.

    The apes arose intelligently through man's downfall thanks to nuclear war. They were the intelligent ones, while man de-evolved and lost it's ability to speak.

    Ironicially, Apes considered themselves "holy" because at the time they were smart and able to talk, and were able to view the world around them.

    Equally ironic, the Apes thought they were holy and humans weren't. They looked on humans as do we monkeys today. They thought they had a soul, and we, the humans, do not.

    Even more ironic, they flipped their lid when they discovered a small group of humans that could speak exactly like they do, because it disproved their religion and it took away their conceived meaning to life.

    It was a good movie, with not only good plot, but good meaning.

    Gorillas have the ablitly to give sign language today with a vocabulary of about 2,500 (2,500 something - I think I'm right about that fact, I'm not sure) and I consider that speaking, unless you are sick and want to think that HUMANS who use sign langauge and are unable to speak are just as equally "un-important" like Goriallas?

    They're able to give off emotion just as much as we are, and yet, we say, they have no soul, just us "special" humans.

  12. generalhurrss Registered Senior Member

    someone's got to have a sense of humour here, coz religion sucks.
    The bible was written by man under the influence of drugs, er no, I mean, under the influence of extraterrestrial intelligence.
    Jesus Christ was a hybrid and we all shunned him and sent him back into space.
    Has there ever been another virgin birth?

    I do have a serious point here though (hang on I'm always serious), if any of you have read genisis, have you noticed that this god, an alien who goes by the name jehova, went round speaking to a lot of people, so where is he now. Why does he not speak to people now, suddenly become shy has he? or is it because he does not exist anymore - I should image even aliens die of old age.
    And what about the talking reptile can any of say you have ever seen one, I doubt that very much.
    The bible is a weak concept for the weak minded.

    Knock 'em dead Flash.

    And all you suckers, crucify me, after all that's what your good at, you did it to your own saviour.

    Religion sucks.

    Satan leads the blind and the blind lead the blind and so forth.
  13. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member


    Not bad, but a couple of corrections are in order. First, it's about 250 words, not 2,500. And second, it's not gorillas -- it's chimpanzees. (Just wanted to set the facts straight before some looney latches on to them to discount your entire post).

    I am; therefore I think.
  14. MaTTo Registered Senior Member

    Thanks Boris,

    I thought it was something like 2,500. Honestly I pulled that number out of my head without even checking it out to see if I was absolutely right.

    And there's no excuse for it - I was simply to lazy to pick up a text book on the other side of my house to back up what I said. Oh well - I'm human.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    But now I have to ask myself the same question you should be asking yourself:

    Would they have really noticed that a few of the things in my posting was wrong and would they have cared?

    Even if I was right the first time said, would it have mattered?

    Would it have changed their minds, and altered their perceptions?

    Look around in the postings. Look at the over whelming evidence presented. That, obviously, had no effect.

    I don't see what use it is telling them what's the truth and what's not. They have it pretty much figured out for themselves and nothing will change that.

    1 question that I will use in the defense for science:

    Where would we be today, if the great minds of yesterday just gave up and left it up to God?


    [This message has been edited by MaTTo (edited July 07, 1999).]
  15. Bruce Guest

    To Matto
    GENESIS 1:1-2

    10 (1:2) Creation--God. Creator--Gap Theory--Divine Judgment Theory-Recreation
    Theory.-Restitution Theory--Satan, Fall of: the second major position on creation is known by at least
    four names, but the most used name is probably The Gap Theory. The other names by which the
    theory is known are The Recreation Theory, The Restitution Theory, or The Divine Judgment Theory.
    Each of the names stresses some major point of the theory.
    Briefly stated, the Gap theory says that the word "was" (v.2) should be translated "became.~ The
    earth was created perfect in verse one. But in verse two the earth is seen as a waste and void. Thus
    between verse one and verse two there is a huge gap of time, an unknown number of centuries.
    Between the two verses something happened--something with catastrophic consequences. What? What
    caused the earth to 'become a waste and void"? It is usually said that Satan's fall occurred at this time,
    and his rebellion against God caused a catastrophic judgment to fall upon the earth. (See Is.14:12; cp.
    Ezk.28:12.) Thus verse one describes a perfect creation, and verse two describes what happened to the
    earth after a great judgment fell upon it. Verse three begins the recreation of the earth by the Spirit of
    God who had been hovering over the earth. There are several arguments used to support this position.
    1. The word "was" can be translated "became." Therefore, these two verses should read:
    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth became without form
    and void
    [empty]" (Gen.l:l-2).
    2. The Bible clearly says that the earth was created "not in vain [empty, as a waste]" (Is.45:18).
    Therefore, when God created the earth, it must have been perfect. The earth must have reflected the
    very perfection of God's nature, the perfection of all His glory and majesty. This logical argument is
    also added: a perfect and loving God cannot create an imperfect universe. A perfect and loving God
    can create only a perfect world.
    "For thus salth the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and
    made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain ]empty, as a waste], he formed it to be
    inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else' (Is.45:18).
    3. The Bible teaches that Satan (Lucifer) was the most exalted angel in all of heaven, that God had
    created him to rule as the highest of all created beings. But Satan did the same thing that all men have
    done: he sinned and fell. He rebelled against God. Therefore, just as man was cast out of the Garden of
    Eden, so Satan was cast from his exalted position before God. And just as men are to face the eternal
    judgment of God, so is Satan. Satan is to be condemned to an eternity of hell--soon, very soon, just as
    all men who reject God are to be condemned.
    When was Satan cast from his exalted position before God? The Gap Theory says in the dateless
    past, someplace in the ages between verses one and two. And Satan's fall caused a catastrophic
    judgment to fall upon the earth. Apparently, part of his rule and reign was the earth and the physical
    and material universe. Therefore, when judgment fell upon Satan, judgment also fell upon all that he
    ruled over, which included the earth. It was then that the earth became "without form and void [empty,
    a waste]" (Gen.l:2).
    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to
    the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into
    heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the
    congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be
    like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"
    "Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation
    upon the king of Tyrus [a type of Satan, Lucifer], and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
    Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the
    garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the
    beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the
    workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast
    created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the
    holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of tie. Thou
    wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By
    the multitude of thy merchandise they have rifled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast
    sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and 1 will destroy thee,
    O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of
    thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the
    ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy
    sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I
    bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon
    the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee' (Ezk.28:ll-18).
    4. The Bible teaches that Satan has some control over the earth: he has access to influence the
    world and man. History and the destruction and devastation of nature and the evil of men show that the
    domain of Satan includes the earth, at least to some degree. God certainly did not create the universe
    and then put Satan and his evil forces in charge of it. This would be absolutely contrary to God's
    nature. Therefore, Satan's fall and control over the earth had to take place after the earth and universe
    were created. Again, the only time this could have happened was between verse one and verse two.
    God created a perfect heavens and earth, and then when Satan fell, the earth "became without form
    and void" because it was under the domain of Satan. (See note, Satan--Rev. 12:9 for more discussion.)
    Scripture calls Satan the god of this world.
    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this
    world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
    gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them' (2 Cur.4:3-4).
    Scripture calls Satan the prince of this world.
    "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out"

    GENESIS 1:1-2

    "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and
    hath nothing in me" (Jn.14:30).
    "Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged" (Jn.16:ll).
    Scripture calls Satan the prince of the power of the air.
    "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according
    to the prince of
    the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"
    (Eph.2:2). Scripture calls Satan the ruler of the darkness of this world.
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
    places" (Eph.6:12).
    Satan is the king of a kingdom.
    "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his
    kingdom stand?' (Mt.12:26).
    "Again, the devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him
    all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto him, All these things
    will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me" (Mt.4:8-9).
    Satan has his grip upon the whole world.
    "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness" (1
    5. The earth shows some signs that it has suffered some prehistoric catastrophe. Most of us have
    seen pictures or read of prehistoric animals that were found frozen with their internal organs intact.
    They apparently suffered some catastrophe that immediately fell upon them and froze them or else their
    internal organs would have decayed. This points to an unexpected and immediate catastrophe that
    caught the world of the animals off guard. The fall of Satan would explain the catastrophe.
    6. The words "without form and void' (tohu va bohu) are used together in only two other places
    (Is.34:11; Jer.4:23). In both cases they point to a condition brought by God's judgment. Therefore, it is
    argued that to be consistent, we must conclude that the earth became "without form and void" here in
    verse two because of some judgment of God. The only prehistoric judgment revealed by Scripture is that
    of Satan when he fell.
    7. The gap, the indefinite period of time between verses one and two, can be used to explain the
    scientific discoveries that point to a prehistoric earth. The fossil discoveries of prehistoric animals and
    vegetation and the centuries needed for mineral deposits to develop--all these can be explained as
    having taken place during the ages between verses one and two.
    8. The earth had to be created perfect because a perfect God was creating it. A perfect God could
    never create anything "without form and void."
    9. The structure of the creation account sets verses one and two off from the rest of the account of
    creation. Genesis 1:1-2 is just different from Genesis 1:3-31, significantly different.
    - Verse three is where the seven days of creation begin, not verses one and two.
    Verse three is where Scripture begins to declare that 'God said," and where the six days of
    creation begin.
    And note how each of the days of creation begin with the very same words "God said~
    (Gen.1:3, 6, 9, 14, 20,
    24). This sets the actual creation of the universe off from verses one and two--markedly
    so--according to the
    Gap Theory.
    Each day of creation is also set off by what is said at the close of the day's account. Note the
    words, 'And
    the evening and the morning were the first [second, third, fourth, fifth,and sixth] day" (vs.5,
    8, 13, 19, 23, 31).
    The very structure of the creation account is hereby said to point to two different creations of the
    universe. Verses one and two are said to be the record of the original creation, and verses three to
    twenty-three gives the record of the recreation of the earth after some catastrophic judgment fell upon
    the earth.
    10. The Bible says that God instructed man to "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
    (Gun.l:28). Note the word "replenish." To replenish means to fill again, to repopulate, not to populate
    for the first time.
    11. The Bible says that when the foundations of the earth were laid, "the morning stars [angels] sang
    together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7). An undeveloped and unshaped earth would
    not be reason for singing a song of joy nor for rejoicing in God's sovereignty, in His supreme
    intelligence and power.
  16. Vicki Registered Member

    O.K., what about the fact that the New and Old Testaments appear to be 2 completely, unrelated books. The Old Testament is full of all manner of violence, like Jehovah ordering the Jews into a neighboring village to smite their enemies, every man, woman, child, goat, chicken, puppy, every living creature! Would the Great Spirit really do this, does the Universe operate in this manner? No, it does not. And the Old Testament also talks about the numerous Gods which were being worshiped, and that the Jews chose to worship this specific deity and actually had contact with this deity and were instructed by it to do things and live by certain rules (most of which make perfect sense). Doesn't it make sense that if Jehovah was (is?!) real, so were the other deities who had set themselves up as rulers in other parts of the Middle East and Africa, (probably all over the world)?

    On the other hand, the New Testament seems to me to be much closer to what the Great Spirit would have us know to become part of it again, Love is the key to everything, Love your enemies, etc., etc. And Jesus was one evolved human being, I believe he made it. But does he not say on numerous occasions that we all have the capability to achieve what he has, and this is why we are here? (If only we could truly Love, and do the right thing).

    I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this stuff.
  17. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Flash, a quick answer to you points is that your perspective is false in every case. If John & Paul climbed a tree and I told Steve that John climbed a tree and got some fruit, while, Mary told Sally that John & Paul climbed a tree, And Tom told Jay that Paul climbed a tree and laughed, we would still all be talking about the same event. Even when someone is not spoken of ( angles at the tomb ), it does not mean the lack of the other presence. If your right eye and your left eye could see the exact same picture from the exact same perspective, God would have given you only one. He gives us different aspects of His Glory through different men. He only loads he story with what is of value to that perspective. Try the trick where you look through a cardboard tube with one eye while looking at the open palm of your hand with your other eye and about 6-10 inches away from your face. Can you really see through your hand? Both eyes tell the truth. It's the man perceiving that fails to connect the dots properly. God's word is without flaws!!!!! Jesus Loves you and there is Salvation from Sin. Read it again for the first time.

    You may contact me personally at isda@gte.net
  18. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member



    <FONT SIZE="5">o</FONT>ne of the reasons that God put
    so much prophecy in the Bible is for confirmation of His truth and
    His truth yet to be revealed. The New and Old Testament tie together
    without flaw. The wrath of the Old Testament. is from the same God as
    the Salvation of the New Testament. There is no other God. It might
    also surprise you to know that the Old Testament was peppered with
    revelation of the Lord Jesus. All this belongs to God. Weather you
    like it or not, we are not on His level. He can do with us as He
    chooses. Like Mama always said, &quot;I brought you into this world
    and I can take you out!&quot; Thankfully, He chooses to give us a
    choice. As we all know choices have consequences!!! I will try
    to make all this plain.</P>

    God is a God of eternal <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Perfection</FONT></FONT></P>

    The only thing God can't do is SIN. To loose His perfection would
    cause Him to cease being God. God is forever. That can't happen. His
    plan is never wrong. He knows all things. Thankfully, nowhere in the
    Bible does he say that we have to agree with Him in order for Him to
    be our God. His perfection is without condition.</P>

    God is a <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Just</FONT></FONT> God</P>

    If I admittedly murdered your mother, and was taken to stand before a
    judge, then simply told not to do that kind of thing again and then
    sent home, would that be justice? NO WAY!!! However, being in sin, as
    humans, our view of sin is far too tempered. We think in terms of <FONT SIZE="5">BIG
    white lies</FONT></FONT></SUB>. Jesus said to Love God with all your
    heart and your neighbor as yourself and no sin would be committed. He
    put all sins on the same level. The Bible makes it clear that all
    sins are against God. Going back to the murder example, wouldn't you
    expect there to be payment for the murder of your mother? YES! How
    much less do you think God would demand payment? God says that the
    wages if SIN is DEATH. God defines death as not being in fellowship
    with Him. The completion of death being Hell; the only place you wont
    find God in all that exists. Furthermore, God says that ALL HAVE
    SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God. Justice is fine when
    it's in you favor. What about when you're the one on the business end
    of justice? No man can stand against the judgement he's brought
    against himself. But, wait, isn't there a conflict? What about that
    Love aspect? Everyone knows, or should, that a truly loving parent
    will at sometime need to spank a child's bottom to teach the lessons
    of boundaries and consequences Death, however, seems to be a bit
    extreme. Right? Consider this. We each only have one chance to live
    in the flesh before we enter into eternity. You WILL spend it
    somewhere. The choice is yours. Again, where there is choice, there
    is consequence. If you spend a lifetime of ignoring, only giving a
    passing glance to, thumbing your nose at, or falsely relating to God
    it all translates into one thing. Before I tell you what that is,
    hear this. God said that if you are not for Him then you are against
    Him. Jesus went on to say that no man comes to the Father except by
    Me. He also recounted that He is the door and you must enter by the
    door because anyone entering by the window is a thief. God only
    provides one plan of salvation!!!! Now, to tell you what you've been
    waiting for, it all translates into,&quot;God, leave me alone. I can
    do it all myself. I don't need you.&quot; Being cast into Hell isn't
    cruel. It's when God finally says,&quot; Fine! have it your way!&quot;
    You see, if you live you life in separation from God, then, you are
    spiritually dead already. Once you physically die, you get to have
    that eternal death you've been gunning for so long. Remember, you
    have to spend eternity somewhere and God is the only good in all
    eternity. Therefore, if you cling to, that is to sew, evil in this
    life, you will live in, reap, the fruits of your labor which is
    DEATH. Trusting that His Son is the only way to be saved and that He
    will save you if you ask and believe and if you turn from you sinful
    ways and turn to Christ, then you will be saved. Notice, there is
    nothing said about doing any good works, paying any pinnace, saying
    any pre-prescribed prayer, or living in perfection. God knows that
    you're only human. It is by Faith in Jesus alone that men are saved.
    Still, isn't there a conflict here? Isn't this just like being sent
    home from court a happy and freed murderer? Let's find out what Love
    has to say about this.</P>

    God is a God of eternal <FONT SIZE="5"><FONT COLOR="RED">Love</FONT></FONT></P>

    Like His Perfection, His love is without condition. It's common among
    men for one to stop loving the other because the other has become
    mean or acted in a evil way. One thing we often overlook is that
    God's Love is Perfect and His Perfection is Love. He can no more stop
    being perfect than He can stop being Love. God makes some bold claims
    about Love, real love that is. Among other things, God says that Love
    is long suffering. Ever wonder why He doesn't give everyone what they
    deserve right now? If He did, most of the world would go straight to
    HELL. He's still giving you a chance to give your life over to Him.
    God says that Love is quick to forget transgressions. He even
    promises to take your sins and place them as far away from you as the
    east is from the west when you trust in His plan of salvation. God
    says that Love is not self serving. God did something incredible!!!!!
    It's hard to comprehend. All I can say is that God is not limited by
    the same physical laws that man is. Ya see, when God sent Jesus
    through the virgin Mary, He impregnated her with Himself. He never
    stopped being God. He was still everywhere. He just, in a way,
    extended Himself. he came and He served us. Imagine that. The God who
    created us came and served us. How could this happen? Love is the
    answer? Let's look back at that murder trial again. This time,
    there's a twist. A conviction is certain. The murderer is your son.
    The victim is irrelevant. A conviction would mean DEATH for your son.
    This child that you felt growing inside of you,... this child you
    love so much,... will become a victim of his own sin. Do you know
    that God created us and Loves each and every last one of us dearly?
    Think of the agony!!!! God, being a Just God, could not abandon
    Justice! God, being a God of Love, could not abandon the Love He
    bared for His Creation! Can you see the conflict here? SIN MUST
    be punished. While, at the same time, His Love wants to set FREE
    the condemned! Someone must pay!!! Therefore, He sent, of Himself, a
    Savior to bare the burden of all men on the Cross. It was a FREE Gift
    that no man could earn. God covered the debt of SIN once and for all.
    There's just one thing. Man is hung up on doing it himself. He will
    forsake a FREE gift because it looks too easy. I'll leave you with
    one last example. If I meet you in a park and I tell you that I have
    a Free gift for you. I set it down on the bench you're sitting on in
    front of you and I walk away to continue my gift giving. If you never
    take hold of the package and open it,... if you just stand up, walk
    away, and go on with your life, is the gift yours?</P>


    If you examine the package,... if you look inside to see what it is
    and never take it with you, is it yours?</P>


    How have you treated the FREE Gift of Salvation that God has given you?</P>

    He gives His gift to all. Everyone's sin is the same. It's covered by
    the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Living Word, the Son of God!</P>

    You may contact me personally at isda@gte.net</P>

    P.S.- There's not much I haven't heard if you would like to talk.
  19. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Ok...did you not read the second post with
    the scriptures I had listed?
    Either is was..or wasn't.
    I would like to know if god's word is so perfect.. whyyyyyyyy are there 100's of
    contradictions? Makes no sense whatsoever.
    I have read the bible..lots of times..
    I must confess...the first time I read it
    I had rose colored glasses on..until..wham..
    a light went on... how can something that is
    suppose to be truth do nothing but contradict itself? Why wouldn't god make it clear?
    What's the saying... when in doubt do without? So I guess until I see a burning
    bush... LOL
  20. Vicki Registered Member

    Dear Isdaman:

    I have to admit that a God, who you claim is all perfection and love, but yet would cast me into hell for an eternity of suffering, scares me. How can this be so? This makes no sense! I know that he has given all of us free will, and all of our choices have consequences (my consequences tend to be instaneous, like John Lennon's song, Instant Karma), but why would he cast a lost, but relatively benign, soul like me into eternal damnation and hell fire because I am slow learner about certain things (like Love)? If I were to die right now, according to you (and the Bible!??!) I would be going to hell, forever and ever. How could your God do this to me just because I ask questions, and don't adhere to your form of religious thought, though I do believe in what Jesus taught. I guess I'll go to hell, at least I'll be in good company: all Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and so on and so on.
    I truly respect your views and opinions, but please try to open your mind up to different things.
    Remember what Jesus said, Those who cast the first stone ..... Maybe those who pass such harsh judgments on others human beings will be the first ones in hell, who knows, no one really knows you know.
    Peace and Love,
  21. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member


    My answer still stands. It's your perspective and how you choose to see it. People often choose to rework reality, deny the facts, and throw up smoke screens in order to avoid personal conviction. God's Word IS clear and says that Satan is the author of confusion. If you want God to reveal His truth to you, all you have to do is pray. Seek Him. He is seeking for you.
  22. JMitch Registered Senior Member

    Excuse my interruption, a question:

    If God created and controls everything, why does Satan exist? Why a division of power?
  23. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Dear Vicki,

    Scare you, it should! It's a terrifying thought. How could He? Why
    forever? Why not just for a week or two or some determined length of
    time as according to our sins?</P>

    Let me start by saying that you have made two grave devaluations. The
    first being your relationship, as an issue of being, as relating to
    the almighty God. I flatly deny that you are a, &quot;relatively
    benign being&quot;! You have free will. You have the knowledge of
    good and evil. Most of all, you, personally, were made in the image
    of God for the purpose of fellowship with God. That makes you
    Special!!!! Part of being in the image of God is that you are
    immortal. You are a spiritual being that is, just for a time, in this
    physical world, in this physical flesh, in this thing where there is
    time. Time is a creation of God. outside of this physical realm that
    we live in, there is no such thing as time. There simply is forever.
    I know, it defies the laws of physics. Physical laws are for the
    physical realm That's where they stop.</P>

    Let me show you something.</P>

    Hell was not created for man</P>

    To be quick about this, Satan and a third part of the angles in
    Heaven rebelled against God. Satan's hope was to overthrow God and to
    be God. Because they lived daily in the very presence of God, unlike
    man, they were cast down to the earth and their punishment was made
    to be very much in order with their sin. This punishment being Hell (
    I'm also speaking about the lake of fire ), is where they will be
    cast into.</P>

    O.k., I'll bet you can see that one just fine. Where do humans come
    into this mix? Why wouldn't God create a different punishment place
    for us if we have to be punished? Why Hell? Why forever? Why not just
    for a week or two or some determined length of time as according to
    our sins?</P>

    Be fore I answer these questions, Let's look at that second point of
    devaluation. That point being your devaluation of the nature of God
    and the nature of sin. God is perfect. We know this. If you have a
    glass of pure water and add to it just one H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
    molecule, is it still a glass of pure water? Obviously not. In the
    same way that the glass of water cannot interact with the H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
    molecule and still remain pure, God cannot interact with sin and
    still remain pure. If you are of sin, which all men are, you are like H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
    to God. Somewhere there's got to be a barrier. Only, the barrier must
    also be constructed of water or the glass of water is still not pure.
    With water, this is impossible. Praise God that with Him, nothing is
    impossible! Through the self sacrifice of the shedding of His own
    Blood, seeing how He came to us in the form of a man, there is a
    barrier that when you trust in Him, that is to say when you are
    immersed in Him, your sins, the very H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB> of
    your being is covered. His Blood covers those that trust in His
    Savior. He will see His Son when He looks at you on your day of
    judgement and will therefore judge you as to what rewards you will
    share in Christ with. If you choose to live in sin, you die in sin.
    After which, you will be relegated to the heap of those that chose to
    be discarded in sin before you. Before the first human sinner could
    ever enter Hell, there was first a place set aside for the first
    sinner. That sinner, Satan, was the father of sin. Remember, if you
    are not for God, as He defines what is for Him, then, you are against
    God. Sin is all that is contrary to God. Hell is that pile of sin set
    forth for Satan. If you follow any way contrary to God, no matter how
    wonderful the package may look on the outside, you place yourself
    neatly on the top of that pile.</P>

    Now, to answer those questions. If you recall, I said that outside of
    this physical realm, there is no time. Once you are where you're
    going, you are there. It's too late when you're locked down on death
    row to think that you can be good enough to work you way out. Hell is
    a great big refuse pile. That answerers the, &quot;Why forever?&quot;,
    question. As far as, &quot;Why Hell and not someplace
    different?&quot;, goes, I think that has been taken care of within
    these past two posts. All sin is the same in the eyes of God. He
    started a pile for sin. He does not need a new one. Surprise
    Surprise!!! God does recognize that some have done more sins than
    others. This goes to that,&quot;Why not just for a week or two or
    some determined length of time as according to our sins?&quot;,
    question. God make it known that of whom is given much, much is
    expected. He shows in His word that the people that will have the
    most sufferings in Hell will be those that had the most contact with,
    the most revelation of, the most interaction with His Word and still
    chose not to trust His Savior. There is no time there. There is,
    however, an amount of suffering that can be awarded to a man, or even
    a devil, I'm sure, because of his deeds and his knowledge of the
    orientation of those deeds to God.</P>

    God condemns no one to Hell</P>

    In all that exists outside of this physical realm, God is there. The
    only exception is that place He made for Satan and the angles that
    decided to go with him. There comes a point where everyone must stand
    in the presence of the almighty God and be judged. All those who
    don't have an attorney ( Jesus ), stand to answer, point by point,
    for a lifetime of sin against God. If, while you are given the chance
    to choose ( while on Earth ), you choose not to go God's way, not to
    prepare for the trial to come, but go where and do what you think
    will be o.k. or with what looks and feels good to the flesh, then you
    choose Hell of your own free will. When you stand in the presence of
    God. If he asks you, &quot;Vicki, why should I let YOU into MY
    Heaven?&quot;, what answers do you think He will accept? &quot;God,
    I've been a really good person. I didn't do drugs. I never killed
    anyone. I learned from most of my mistakes.&quot; -- and on and on
    and on. The Bible says that all of a man's good deeds are as filthy
    rags. Where is there a man who can say that his good deeds can amount
    to the good deeds of Jesus Christ? That's the standard. God says that
    if you trust in His Son, when He sees you in the court room, He will
    see the Blood of His Son and accept you like you are His sinless Son.
    God says that those who trust in Christ are joint heirs with Christ
    in Heaven. We share in His riches. God also says that if you are not
    for me, you are against me. You are either working or not working,
    live or dead, on the right or on the left. The time to choose is now.
    What defense are you going to have in that day? It's too late to
    stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, &quot;I'll do it
    the way I was supposed to from the start.&quot; It's too late to
    stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, &quot;I need an
    attorney ( Jesus )&quot;, when you knew long ago that this day of
    judgement would come. We have a saying that a man who is his own
    attorney has a fool for a client.</P>

    I understand you possibly being upset with me, regarding your final
    statement in your last post. However, I'm merely reporting the Good
    News. I didn't make it. Jesus was a lot more direct and cutting to
    the point than I could ever be. The judgement is not mine. It's Gods.
    As He gives His children freedom in His truth and the power that
    comes with it, He expects it to be spoken BOLDLY. God's Word
    is sharper than any two edged sword. That means that anyone on the
    receiving end is going to get cut. I'm thankful that it has cut me
    and that it still cuts me today.</P>

    With Love from someone that is actively praying that you entrust your
    life to God's Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.</P>

    < !-- $MVD$:spaceretainer() -->&nbsp;</P>

    P.S. - Jesus also taught that those that trust in Him are counted
    amount the circumcised. The circumcised, of course, being the Jew.

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