# Ideal Society

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Feb 2, 2012.

1. ### Me-Ki-GalBannedBanned

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4,634
Yes I agree. That is the end we work towards . I see it as an honor to work . Getting to do the work is the pay off. You have to be at an appropriate skill set to even qualify to compete for the job . Very limited positions available . It would be like rock star status . The rest would be passengers in life. Enjoying the entertainment yet every body has the ability to rise to rock star levels by competition .
You see the future pretty good in my opinion. I can see it .
The monetary system of debit and credit will fall by the wayside too as it will obsolete. It will fall from its own weight. Because of being such an inhibitor to human success. That may happen in our own time when I get finished altering mind sets. One of my goals in life . I know lofty , but I never stop trying . It will be the future . We or with out Me pushing or pulling for it .

3. ### The EsotericistGetting the message to GarciaValued Senior Member

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Ah ha. . . see what I did there? You have both made the assumption that evil is necessarily equated with wrong or bad. . . as opposed to just, not the ideal. For there to be good, or truth, evil must necessarily exist. How can it be otherwise? It is a matter of proportion, and what we value that is a measure of how we order society. No, I don't think anyone that has a mortgage or is in debt is evil. Nor do I contend that those who hold debt are evil. But perhaps one who collects interest that holds debt, should look at where the collection of interest, and where that interest accrues from, should seriously consider what the effects are on society, and indeed they are on poor that they consequently have.

:bravo: Bravo. However, life is for living, it is for learning, and it is for experience in the material plane of existence. It is what we make of it. If we don't make of it an equitable existence for all life forms, than what is life worth?

Currently it is out of balance. That is what debt does for us, it unbalances what life is worth, and the measure of all things. Rather than spending time doing meaningful and useful things, time is spent, frittered away in fear and worry. Working to pay off debt, rather than spending time doing ones joy, is a waste of ones precious time. We measure a person by their material possessions, rather than by their passions, nature, and wisdom. Well, most people anyhow.

For the well to do, to profit off of a crisis situation is the antithesis of the Ideal. And yet, this is what has propelled the history of humanity for the past millennia. So, I contend it is evil that has had the upper hand. Not, any where close to the Ideal, but in fact, our hellish reality.

5. ### Oniw17ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum?Valued Senior Member

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Sounds pretty counter-to-my-ideals.

7. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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The Esotericist, I assumed you meant the institution of lending, not me specifically. Without debt, there could be no trips to the moon, no Panama Canal, no high rise buildings, no large infrastructure projects of any kind. We would be limited by the money we have in our hands right now, and nothing would get done.

8. ### The EsotericistGetting the message to GarciaValued Senior Member

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2,119
On the contrary. I have no problem with lending at all, it is what makes the world go round, and it is how capital is accumulated. Are you familiar with the term "social capital?" It's funny how you can't build up interest in the collection of social capital, can you? No, it's interest, or usury, the ill gotten gain of the milk of human kindness which I have a problem with. This is that which turns the whole of human society corrupt and leads us further astray from that "ideal". It is the metaphor to which every Vampire movie alludes. It is that blob and monster movie which destroys civilizations, and needs to be reset every half millennium. Until a more faithful Ideal to the natural tenets of the human spirit are found, the disgustingly ridgid societies outlined in such works as The Dialogs, 1984, Brave New World, and Animal Farm, will be what we are doomed to repeat, not the ideal we strive for. . .

Other civilizations have throughout the galaxy have accomplished far greater things than these, without the use of credit or money. It is the very use of credit and money which are now holding our species back. It is our lack of imagination, and our lack of brotherly love. . . It is a valuation on things, instead of ideas, goals and dreams - these are what now holds our species back. You're lack of imagination is symptomatic of our world leaders today.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein.

9. ### Oniw17ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum?Valued Senior Member

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3,423
What? Can you elaborate?

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11. ### The EsotericistGetting the message to GarciaValued Senior Member

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2,119
Sure, pretty simple. The intergalactic space faring civilizations don't use credit or money. There are many mysteries we could discuss, but they are not appropriate on this thread. Suffice to say, consumption and profit, luxury and excess are not their goal. What possible reason could there be for a society to create rings of rock, ice, debris and gas around planets other than for beauty? Perhaps it is I that lack imagination. . . but I see none.

Here is that hard physical evidence.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2856096&postcount=93

NASA Ringmakers of Saturn UFOs 2010

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2856117&postcount=94

But honestly, if you are interested, there is plenty more evidence, from many many powerful insiders throughout humanities secret civilization that have revealed clues and hints about what goes on beyond Earth's boundaries. It is up to you to do the research and discern who is a reliable witness, and who is not. To cross reference and determine what is truth, and what is not. Be sure of one thing, with the amount of denial and ridicule that goes on with in the establishment, they are out there, and the way the order their society is a threat to our elite rulers and they have enforced the order on ours. And then? Whether you believe, or whether you don't? That is up to you, isn't it. What are you going to do, tell yourself forever that all of this is the work of secret societies, pranksters and what not?

Alien Civilization Makes Contact!

12. ### quadraphonicsBloodthirsty BarbarianValued Senior Member

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9,391
If you think that Buddhist monks live a lifestyle that eschews stress, responsibility and work, then all I can say is that you don't seem to have much of a grasp on what the life of a buddhist monk is actually like.

13. ### quadraphonicsBloodthirsty BarbarianValued Senior Member

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9,391
But, how could that possibly occur?

But then, what do the robots need us around for?

That's the thing: most people who win the lotto and quit their jobs end up very unhappy. And oftentimes, they also end up broke in short order. It sounds like a fantasy life, but escape from stress and responsibility only functions if you are, ultimately, still stuck with the stress and responsibility. If you remove it entirely, the whole concept of "leisure" becomes meaningless.

I'd phrase it this way: finance is useful. The actual accumulation of debt is itself a liability.

14. ### PandaemoniValued Senior Member

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3,634
Isn't this a plot point in Wall-E?

15. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,285
Well, one of the ideas I was trying to get to in this thread was this notion that we get to prosperity through productivity.

Is economic prosperity only possibly through productivity? IOWs in order for society to become more prosperous it must increasing productivity. Thus, anything that reduces productivity, reduces social prosperity. Such as government incentive programs. While these may increase equitably, they will reduce the overall prosperity.

I was under the impression that this is the case. I then (admittedly a small leap) was under the impression that a prosperous society has more leisure time. Such as in the economic parable of the three men on an island. All are fishing by hand. Each can catch one fish each day, which they eat. Each day all the men spend all day trying to catch a slippery fish. One day one of the men forgoes his fish (goes without/delays gratification) and makes a net (takes a risk) and the next day, through the snickers of this friends, catches three fish in two hours. Leaving him with two fish (capital he could consume, save, loan and/or invest), as well as more leisure time.

Do you know that parable? I can post a link to the book if anyone is interested.

I have to say, I agree that no work makes most of us feel unhappy. BUT, we've spent a lifetime being told we need to work hard and study to get a good job. Perhaps kids who were raised to think about philosophy and debate would think differently. It used to be that getting dressed and having dinner was a big "job" for an aristocrat. An all day affair and very important "job". Who knows, maybe 1 hour of "work" a day would be "fulfilling" to people in such a world?

(2) The other idea I was thinking about was slavery. I've often thought that slavery was unproductive and therefor society should not lean towards it as a means of creating prosperity - inherently. However, I'm now wondering if that is true. There is evidence that slaves were very expensive in the USA (about the price of a very nice car) and I can't but help think no one spends money unless they think they will make a good return. Also, the Chinese are IMO almost slave-like in the hours and conditions they work. Yet, China is becoming prosperous and one day they will not need to "catch fish all day long by hand" as the prosperity will afford the the leisure time we have.... if that makes sense.

Robots are sort of like slaves in this example. I guess I was wondering could robot "slaves" keep our society productive and prosperous? I was going to say NO, but, then I wondered maybe yes? Assuming no one person controls the robotic factory.

Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
16. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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Please explain how you can build a system of fair reciprocity with regard to social capital without any rigidity (rules, regulations, or customs). Most peaceful and well run communities of the past existed within a rigid social structure.

17. ### psikeyhackrLive Long and SufferValued Senior Member

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1,205
The United States probably should have been on a 3-day work week by the 80s.

Economists do not talk about planned obsolescence and do not compute and report how much the US and the world loses on depreciation of all of the garbage that is manufactured. There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1995. At $1,500 in depreciation per car per year that would be$300,000,000,000 per year. Yeah some old cars weren't worth $1,500 but some new$40,000 cars lost more than \$5000 in depreciation that year. The point is the economics profession does not discuss it. Not to mention the air conditioners and refrigerators and TVs etc., etc.

So we are running the world economy while listening to economists who can't do algebra. They have been doing it wrong since the 50s and the world population has more than doubled since then.

http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html

psik