If God existed he could end all this suffering right now

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    He could appear to us and come down and tell everyone, "It's over. Here I am. I exist. Now everything will be fine from henceforth. No more suffering. No more tragedies. No more evil. I will let you continue to solve your problems, but you have my help and support now." Why couldn't this happen? Or does the mere knowledge of an omnipotent God take away our freedom?
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  3. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

    If a god existed there should not be any suffering, A highly sentient being such as a god could create a system without suffering or error. if that god chose too.
    The christian worldview, such as the fall of man proves that god was wholly inept, and fallible.
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Absolutely. We're talkn an omniscient being here. What does it say about their view of God that he can't even create a universe without suffering and evil in it?
    Incompetence to the nth degree.
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  7. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Positives must have negatives to exist.
  8. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

    "If God existed he could end all this suffering right now". Yeah right, he could destroy the whole lot of you whingers, and put an end to it once and for all.
  9. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    This is a topic, I also wrestle with. I've believed in God all my life. That said however, I've been angry with Him at different times. I've wrestled with this very thing, time and time again.

    Why would God allow the Holocaust? Why would He allow 9/11? Why would He allow my dad to have cancer? On and on...I have strayed from the faith, and came back...a number of times.

    I think when people meet christians...sometimes, there is an assumption that we never question. That we blindly follow. We just keep plodding along, never dissenting. lol But, I'm here to say. We too question. Often!

    The only explanation is that God created the human race to help itself. To support itself. Gave us all free will. The will to choose right and wrong. When I think about that, I think...imagine a world where there was no free will. Would I want God to be a genie in the sky, that swoops down every time I mess up? How will I learn right from wrong, if I never learn to correct myself through Him? Heaven is where there is supposed to be no more strife. I can't imagine a place like this.

    This topic merits a longer dialogue, but I just wanted to quickly chime in, as I think it's important to know, that people who believe in God, wrestle with the same things athetists do. The very same things.

    But, in my questioning, and anger...I have come to surrender to God, meaning...I see life as a maze of good and bad. Suffering and reaping good things. He's not a wizard sitting around ready to grant us our every wish. Nor is he an ogre that smites us.

    As a believer in God, I believe that He does care for me. There have been a myriad of circumstances throughout my life, that through no other way, but Divine Intervention, I could attribute the good that's happened. Yes, we are in control. Yes, we make choices. But, there have been times when I have made horrible horrible choices. And yet, everything 'somehow' worked out. I choose to believe that God was in those details.

    To me, He is in the details.

    That said, it's not easy to go from not believing to believing in something supernatural. I grew up in the faith. And for a long time, I think I just paid homage to my father through my faith. But, as an adult, I started seeking answers. If I'm going to follow this faith in God, I need to know WHY. And that journey took a few years.

    So, if you don't believe in God ...but are inclined to at someday explore the possibility of a Creator...it does take a while to accept it all. It's not easy to accept faith, for face value. It's not easy to take that 'leap of faith.' It isn't.

    But to me? It's been so worth it. The strife, the struggles. All worth it. Don't wanna do them again. lol But, God knows what He is doing, and we are to be helpers and caretakers of each other. He created us to 'be' for one another. I offer this to you as my belief. Not to sway you, but to help you see that my belief isn't built on nothing.

    Anyways, that's my two cents here. For whatever it's worth.

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  10. arauca Banned Banned

    When Christ come , what did they do yo him ?

    Love God with all your hearth and with all your strength, and love thay fellow human as yourself , Why don't we do it , At least the only calamity would be natural disasters, I am positively 3 miles per hour would be enough, there would not be drunken drivers , there would not be any rapes , no body would steel your wallet. and so on
  11. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

    However only fleetingly. Esle you would not be religious now.

    Ok, but did god know what Hitler was going to be, before he allowed him to to be born, or Stalin, Pol Pot, etc... The answer is yes according to the holy books . He knew they would oppress the will of many, yet he did nothing.
    Ok but why does the will of the victim get thrown aside.
    You would not be able to mess up without free will, you would be an automaton.
    You wouldn't that was a mistake of gods.

    Sorry wrong, maybe a tiny few, that don't pertain to god, religion or religious faith. However as we don't belief, we don't put god in the equation, it is extremely unlikely you deliberate the same problems. You may question, but try taking god out of the equation, then you'll truly be questioning.

    Then you didn't think it through, did you.
    That would be because he doesn't exist, try thinking it through.

    He certainly showed that he cared for other follows like you. When Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Torquemada, etc. Got them, didn't he.
    Rubbish give yourself and others credit.
    Only if we are not victims.
    Unless we become victims.
    Which happens to us, all without any need for divine intervention.
    Some people do as they never think things through.
  12. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Re: If God existed he could end all this suffering right now

    Where would be the fun in that?
  13. Anew Life isn't a question. Banned

    I am fond of the idea of god. I have studied variety's of idea's of religion. Storied text is interesting. One day I came to gander that the word God was created from the word Good. So then I go, thinking Good will represent itself in it's might and justness. And then I am thwarted by worldy complications of suffering..mine own as well, And I go to idea and care....Good Gosh..I like to represent God with ovation of gratitude for the idea of the word Life.

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  14. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    This is dear, anew.

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  15. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Hi geeser;

    I would like to reply and will when I'm able to multi quote with ease.

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  16. Gage Registered Senior Member

    He's just up there laughing at us.

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  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    The Religious Redneck Retards usually give us two reasons:
    • 1. God is testing us to see how strong we are. If we can endure the tests (floods, wars, racism, Holocaust, etc.) and still have faith in him, then we are really good people and he will show us his love once we die and go to Heaven. But the dude is supposed to be omniscient. He made us, so he must know how strong we are! What's with this stupid charade?
    • 2. He is punishing us. Even though he made us exactly the way we are because that's the way he wanted us to be, he punishes us for being this way. We're supposed to be stronger, wiser, kinder, even though he could have made us stronger, wiser, kinder and he didn't.
    If God exists, he's nothing but a cosmic asshole. A textbook example of an abusive parent!
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    When I wanna imagine a world without freewill I just look around me. Billions of people born into abject poverty. Children being abused or neglected or dying of some horrible disease. The rich 10% getting more powerful and the poor 90% getting less and less. I see people saddled with disabilities, mental illness, social stigmas, crime, racism, homophobia, cultural delusions, foreclosures, unemployment, genetic predispositions towards disease, and natural disasters. We MAY have freewill at certain ideal moments of our lives. But by and large we are victims of circumstance, struggling with the conditions we were born with and raised into with little choice in the matter. Why couldn't a God make this playing field more even? Establish a world where there is plenty for everyone and children are not scarred by the adversities of random chance? Why not just say, "Here I am! Now all you can believe in me." But no..not a peep from the guy in charge. Everytime I look for a God all I see is a big empty throne with a sign on it: "Out to lunch"
  19. arauca Banned Banned

    Talk to Buddha , he went voluntary through suffering and joy , so he would have the understanding .

    Since you guys don't believe in him why should he bother with you .
  20. river


    It odd that a god is no more mature then a teenager
  21. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Not sure what makes you think we live in a world that doesn't already incorporate a god to help solve our problems ... but that aside, what form would the scenario take whereby god removes all and any symptoms of suffering?
    Like suppose you own something that someone else doesn't have, which causes them to want to steal it.
    What do you propose god does in this scenario to "solve" the problem?
    Give everyone absolutely anything they want?
    Zap away an individual's propensity to steal (or alternatively, your attachment which prevents you giving whatever you have to anyone who wants it)?

    With a little bit of thinking, you will see that such proposals actually escalate suffering as opposed to solving it .....

    On the contrary, having an omnipotent god exercising their powers for the express purpose of removing all trace of suffering in the lives of living entities who are not omnipotent provides the perfect picture of a god that has taken away their personal freedom.
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    God could psychically transmit the feeling and images of loss and suffering every act of theft causes. He could flash that into the thief's mind as a revelation of the consequences of his crime. Eventually people would learn that stealing really is a bad thing for society, and do so without any violation of free choice. Thus God would be bettering a human race who in addition now has the knowledge that he exists and will allow evil to punish itself over time.

    According the theists, God's going to provide that scenario anyway. It's called heaven or the New Earth--a land where all desires are met and no suffering exists. Why not start that scenario now on earth? Do you think freedom entails the necessity of suffering? Do you think people have to actually choose to do evil to realize it is wrong?
  23. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    I would respect you more if you didn't rant.

    It's hard to imagine anyone having courage in a universe without fear. It's hard to imagine anyone showing self-sacrifice in a universe without loss. It's hard to imagine the joy of discovery in a universe without ignorance. It's hard to imagine anyone displaying determination in a universe where every goal is easily attained.

    It seems to me that most of our human virtues only make sense in conditions of imperfection where adversity exists.

    The theist might argue that even if God does know what the future holds (not all theists believe that), that would still be knowledge of the choices that humans themselves make in the conditions in which they will find themselves.

    Maybe the idea is that the goal isn't so much that we be strong, wise or kind, but rather that we want to be strong, wise or kind. If God just creates everyone with a full set of factory-installed virtues, we wouldn't be rising over adversity, discovering and hopefully choosing the good in ourselves. In other words, maybe the focus is on our motivation.

    If the promise of eternal life was true, then this life would be so infinitesimally fleeting as to almost be insignificant. So whatever pain this life contains might not have a whole lot of importance in the big picture.

    So the theist could easily imagine God's letting us live our lives on Earth as something akin to parents letting their kids play sports. Sports can be difficult and demanding, and they expose kids to the experience of defeat. But sports do help teach kids the kind of things that arguably are important for kids to learn.

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