If God is real, how would you know?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Apr 8, 2020.

  1. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Slight linguistic correction: waha also means "voice", and sometimes it means "mouth" or "in the mouth".
    So perhaps there isn't any distinction between speech and singing in Maori culture. They have various forms of poetic oratory, as well, which seem to depend more on a rhythm than a cadence. Sounds about right.
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  3. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    My conjecture is they knew which direction to sail in because of volcanic activity; they saw the effects, on the horizon, of large-scale eruptions in the North Is, of NZ, and in Hawaii. Both archipelagos were colonised about the same time, and the archeological evidence shows that Maori settlers arrived in a determined, planned colonisation shortly after a large eruption in the central Nth Is of NZ. They figured out somehow, where, if not how far away, the volcano was.

    I'm not sure about how to apply that to Hawaii because I haven't really looked it up much, but it makes sense the Polynesians went looking for something they knew had to be there; they had faith, for sure.

    The idea of an island appearing due to volcanic activity, to be the work of a mythical being isn't a stupid thing to think or believe; these people sailed across thousands of miles of open ocean. That is either supremely stupid, or brilliant in its way, all you can see is stars at night, and where the sun rises and sets.
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
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  5. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Apparently the Hawaiian islands were colonised by Polynesians from the Marquesas, which is about 2000km away.

    When a volcanic plume reaches the stratosphere it can extend hundreds of km, at greater than say, 25km up. If the eruption continues for long enough, say a week, this should generate a long plume that stretches maybe thousands of km across the sky for days, appearing as a long dark cloud that narrows towards the source.

    Here's a satellite photo of the recent eruption in Iceland of Eyjafjallajökull (I think the white part at the bottom left is part of Norway):

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    The plume stretches across the North Atlantic for about the same distance, 2000km or so.
    If you were living in Norway and this happened say, 700 years ago, would you decide it was a sign of land? is there a possibility that Vikings found the place because they knew land was there because of volcanic plumes from sub-Plinian or Plinian events, like in NZ in 1314?

    I think the Polynesians colonised NZ directly after the eruption and the plume in the sky that pointed the way, because they saw a sign from their gods saying "here be solid ground, and land to live upon", so they made the pilgrimage.
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    I understand that to be correct, and from there, New Zealand was colonised, although I remember reading somewhere about two lots of migratory groups that populated NZ.
    Off track but a point of interest, I spent time while sailing a square rigged Barquentine across the Pacific on three of the Marquesas Islands, Nuku hiva, Fatu Hiva and Hiva Oa, the last of those we came across Paul Gaugan's grave. Beautiful part of the world, and a world away from Tahiti where the French influence is much more noticable.
    Later on sailing southwards towards Tahiti, we stopped at Manihi atoll in the Tuamoto Archepeligo, not that far from Mururoa atoll where the arrogant French did there nuclear testing.
  8. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, thing about history, it should agree with archeology. The two migrations story isn't supported by the evidence, which points to a planned voyage towards the North Island about 1350; the "other migration" arose because some skeletal remains and other items were uncovered at Wairau bar, at the top of the South Island, dated to about 1288 which predates both the eruption (Kaharoa event of 1314) and the evidence of early settlement (moa hunting, again in the South Island).

    So the earlier evidence is airbrushed out of the main migration, as being possibly an earlier visit by Polynesians of unknown provenance, who didn't return home to tell the tale.

    But I think if someone wants to have a definition of God, for the Polynesians who colonised the Pacific, it might be that thing which inspired them to navigate the oceans (an enterprise which is risky, as you may know through experience); I conjecture the thing was what they knew about volcanic activity. They were early vulcanologists and geologists, even if their theories were based on mythical thinking.
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  9. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    I wasn't intending to get into how Polynesians and other groups colonised the Western Pacific or when it started, rather stay focused on their motivations for doing it.

    It would have been something that people were scared of doing, sailing God knows how far with only those resources you could carry, and the ability to catch fish. It was definitely an article of faith, especially in the skills of the navigators. There is also evidence the climate changed briefly after the Kaharoa event, and that it may have been the cause of the early 14th century famine in Europe.

    It seems the colonisers of NZ, in the 14th century used the shift in prevailing wind patterns, not just to get there, but return home, several times. Or at least the group from the Cook Islands/Raratonga did this.
  10. Saint Valued Senior Member

    God revealed himself in history, but not always reveals himself.
    You got to have Faith through prayer to Him, and follow his Words and you will know him personally.
  11. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Did the Polynesians who packed some canoes with food and coconuts, engage in wishful thinking?

    Well, arguably yes, about the reasons volcanoes emit plumes of smoke and ash, but not about what those signs meant.

    Do you think today, that you might be a person who entertains wishful thinking? When it comes to the question of whether you know if God is real, what can you tell yourself?
    If you think God is real, is that wishful since it requires faith; if you think God isn't real, how is that not an article of faith?
    Oh sure, someone who says they've never seen any evidence has a point, but how can they be sure they're looking in the right place?

    What's wrong with the idea that God is real because we need a mythology that doesn't get in the way, type of thing? We understand, even if we don't think about it, that God is after all, a projection from ourselves onto the world, when really we should project this idea back onto ourselves, and accept that we are God. There is no external one, that's just the world, and it looks nice and everything, fascinating maybe, but it doesn't care what you think or believe.

    So in effect, God is no big deal once you realise that all the ancient mythologies were just a coping mechanism, a way for humans to explain how they know to do things other animals can't do. It got more sophisticated as humans developed more complex cultures, but that's what it always was, and is now, something that's as real as humans need it to be. God explains human fascination, with the world and with themselves in that world. There is also the need we feel to apologise for being how we are, which is to say, for our ability to be savage and bloodthirsty. This has to be explained, because we also have the ability to be compassionate and caring.

    Perhaps all God is then, is a way to explain this apparent dichotomy, we're alternately caring, gentle creatures who are also murderous and violent . . .

    But personally I don't believe God is an idea.
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    How does this person know this to be true? They don't. The lines between fact and fiction, what they know and what they believe are completely blurred so much that whatever the person believes regardless of how absurd and unlikely, must be true. It's the kind of mindset that promotes dishonesty without the person even realizing they're being dishonest. Further to that, it probably promotes the Dunning Kruger effect as the person believes they know so much more than they actually do simple because they believe whatever they want to believe.
  13. Saint Valued Senior Member

    God promised one day he will reveal himself to all mankind during judgement day, everyone will stand in front of his judgement throne.
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Where is that promise? Is it written down and witnessed.

    If it happens it will be an interesting thing to see...A line of perhaps ten billion people waiting for their name to be called..how much time will you get before the judge...well whatever multiply that by ten billion...could be rather drawn out.
  15. Saint Valued Senior Member

    God can do what he watns to do, don't limit Him to human's capacity.
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Where is his promise written?
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Compared to the flippancy you show at other times, watching you bear down when presented with this makes a certain point about your capabilities.

    Really, is it that this sort of religion scares you? Or do you think you can take this one in a fight, especially with a little help from your friends?

    To the other, at least you're keeping it real and not trying to overexert yourself. After all, so many people cause themselves trouble by trying to do too much.
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Ah yes, the passive aggressive threats of judgment of God's wrath upon those who question the absurd and unlikely claims of theists. Of course, we've observed over the centuries where this kind of threat can lead; Inquisitions and Crusades comes to mind. It's where theists decide to take God's wrath into their own hands and judge those who disbelieve long before God allegedly gets his hands on them.

    "Throw her into the lake with a rock lashed to her legs, if she floats, she's a witch, if she drowns, she's not."
  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    It's the capacity of humans to shove their beliefs down our throats and mete out the consequences that's more concerning than what God wants to do. Of course, we've never seen God do anything, so we wonder if his will to do something is all cracked up to his capacity or not.

    And, the claims for what theists pretend to know compared to what they believe continues unabated, as does their dishonesty.
  20. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Mythical thinking is something that should be easy to spot, particularly when a pandemic appears.

    It's pretty common to see a reaction like: "this is a conspiracy, it isn't really happening; all these people who are scared have been fooled by the agents of T.H.E.M."

    So, you know, all you need to do to save yourself is believe it's all bullshit. We should never underestimate the power of belief.
    Belief in the "righteousness" of sailing across thousands of miles of open ocean, did it for Maori.
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    May I take that as a compliment?
    Perhaps that I am transparent.

    Actually directing my thoughts makes me realise I am indifferent.

    Nevertheless I should not be unkind to Saint attempting to review his beliefs...So Saint let me apologise.. I am sorry for putting you on the spot.

    Thank you Tiassa for causing me to reflect.

    What must you think of me...all I can say is sorry for getting under your skin.

    Well of course, I come here to relax and rest from my exertion in the real world...I have always tried to be very clear about that...and my comments in the past should been seen in such a context not perhaps as a casual throw away that I am not really trying...I have nothing to prove ... I am comfortable with my past victories and failures ...that is key to understanding why I will be so annoyingly flippant . You need not worry about me other than I don't look up to you nor do I look down upon you..in fact you strike me as someone I would like in my very small circle of friends in the real world...you are intelligent, well read and often hint that wisdom could be found if one looked hard.

    Yes I agree but perhaps these efforts could be taken as efforts to improve their ranking within the crowd they find themselves less recognised than they may crave.

    Keep up the good work.
  22. pluto2 Valued Senior Member

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    God very very probably doesn't exist otherwise he would have people who are in pain or in trouble in some way and I believe science fully supports me on this.

    And you don't even need to be a scientist to really how fuck upped and cruel this world really is:

    [link deleted by moderator]

    Like it or not, this world is ruled by science and nothing we can do will even change that reality for us.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2020
  23. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Meet him.

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