If there is no energy, does time exist?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by wegs, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Careful, or you will trigger the Americans into re-running the Boston Tea Party and telling us that Farmer George was virtually in the same category as Ivan the Terrible.

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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I believe the "higher alcohol" thing was a myth (since the porters and ales of the time often had more alcohol) - but the two steps they did take to preserve the beer, which the style retained, were 1) more complete fermentation (i.e. no residual sugars) and 2) more hops (mainly because hops fade so fast, so if you wanted it to be hoppy when it got there it had to start out _really_ hoppy.)

    Your second part reminds me of a line out of The Meaning of Life, where a schoolmaster is addressing his students:

    "Two boys have been found rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant. Now, some of you may feel that the cormorant does not play an important part in the life of the school, but I would remind you that it was presented to us by the Corporation of the town of Sudbury to commemorate Empire Day, when we try to remember the names of all those from the Sudbury area who so gallantly gave their lives to keep China British."
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Again Mick, time and space in certain circumstances are interchangeable. I see time, space, spacetime, along with of course gravity, as real. Something need not be physical or have properties to be real. In its most simple form space is what stops everything from being together, and time stops everything from happening together. The question that needs to be asked, is whether time is fundamental or not. The question as to whether time, or space for that matter are real, is certainly debatable and various opinions do exist, but what is certain, is that both are certainly components of spacetime which allows a description of reality that is common for all observers in the universe, regardless of their relative motion.

    You ask for physical properties of time, which as an amateur I am not able to give, but I did find this paper .....
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0010/0010027.pdf

    Time, what is it? Dynamical Properties of Time
    Oleinik V.P.* , Borimsky Yu.C.* , Arepjev Yu.D.

    Department of General and Theoretical Physics, National Technical University of Ukraine “Kiev Polytechnic Institute”, Prospect Pobedy 37, Kiev, 03056, Ukraine **Institute of Semiconductor Physics, National Academy of Sciences, Prospect Nauky 45, Kiev, 03028, Ukraine; e-mail: yuri@arepjev.relc.com Received January 10, 2000

    Abstract.
    " The phenomenon of local dynamical inhomogeneity of time is predicted, which implies that the course of time along the trajectory of motion of a particle in the inertial reference frames moving relative to each other depends on the state of motion of the particle under the influence of a force field. As is seen from the results obtained, the ability to influence the course of time represents one of the most fundamental properties of any material system intrinsically inherent in it by the very nature of things, which manifests itself when the system interacts with force fields. The inferences of the paper are not based on the use of any hypotheses and strictly follow from relativistic equations of motion. The dependence of the course of time upon the behaviour of physical system is, thus, a direct consequence of causality principle, relativity principle and the pseudoeuclidity of space-time. The results obtained confirm the Kozyrev hypothesis that time has physical properties and open up radically new opportunities for the efficient control of physical processes. It is demonstrated with point particle that the change in the course of time results in the appearance of an additional force acting on the particle. A general conclusion is drawn on the basis of the theory advanced that relativistic equations of motion for any kind of matter contain information about the physical properties of time which are, thus, of dynamical nature.
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    So, I'll settle for that explanation, but again opinions on the true nature of time are many and varied.
    Here is Sean Carroll.....

    As Sean wisely says, "when we ask if time is real, what we really mean is whether it is fundamental or not"
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    So wrong but you have made Jan happy
    Noooooooo I asked for a property, any property, need not be physical

    You cannot because none exist

    If they did exist, even a amateur, could look one up

    Sorry can't follow the explaination so no comment

    At the moment I am unable to watch the video but will make a effort to do so on the TV not the phone as TV has better sound

    While I understand being fundermental not sure how such a feature is required for it to be present for time to be real

    I downloaded about 8 papers so will mull over those

    As for beer will wait for when back in Bali, November, for my 2 Bintang Radler, each night, which has a lemon tang

    Cheers

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  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I was a lover of the Cold Gold Resches brew, but its hard to find these days.

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  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Oh this is low hanging fruit

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    Might be hard to find but at least you have evidence and a photograph to show some properties to identify said beer

    Sorry could not resist

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    However just as going to sleep last night it occurred to me to ask, if something is devoid of properties - how to you detect it?

    Coffee time now and will start to review some of my new papers I downloaded

    Cheers

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  10. kevin78 Registered Member

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    I would like to see Britain force its opium onto China now. Back then, pushing drugs did pay, the Brits got Hong Kong.
     
  11. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    paddoboy #169;
    [My death hasn't occurred yet, so it can't be 'out there'.
    Proponents of the block universe are confusing 'occurrence' of an event with 'perception' of that same event*. An astronomer observes a star flare up to 100x its normal brightness in 2010. His star database lists its distance as 50 ly. This means the flare happened in 1960 on the day he was flying to Plano. The event 'flare' occurs once, but is perceived many times as the light dissipates outward in space. Each distant perception of the event does not require the event to occur repeatedly. Once an event happens, it becomes an historical fact, and that's what each subsequent observer perceives, history. The (block) universe is dynamic, changing with new events.]

    *[This was the issue for the geocentric vs heliocentric solar systems. The 2nd system was the behavior of the solar system without human interpretation. The 1st was the perceived behavior which required many compensating factors to explain the complex planetary motions.]
    [The block is 3D with the observer and his clock arbitrarily moving in the x direction. Time is not a dimension, but a process, used as a standard to measure the amount of activity. All measurements are made with reference to a standard. Spatial measurements are made relative to a standard unit of space. Time measurements are made relative to a standard unit of time.]
    [The universe doesn't contain time. If anything be considered as a 'container', it would be a clock. If the sun serves as a clock, then we are always 8 min. late. The temporal classifications are relative to the observer, since time is observer dependent. The past consists of all events perceived. He is not aware of future events since perception is always after the event or historical. Now is an idealization of the mind in interpreting sensory input from local events as simultaneous with the mental processing. The perception space of the observer is a single light cone containing the past, with the observer at the apex.
    Time doesn't flow, but memory does.]
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Any and all frames of references, are as valid as each other.......
     
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I'm reading

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    To lazy to type it out

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    The Universe as it really is Earth Space Matter and Time by

    Thomas R Scott with the assistance of James Lawrence Powell

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  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    As I have said many times, the true nature of time is debatable and controversial to say the least.

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    On this, we are on different sides.

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  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Agree different sides

    How is this for accuracy?

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    The Universe as it really is Earth Space Matter and Time by

    Thomas R Scott with the assistance of James Lawrence Powell

    Cheers

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  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Yes! Entropy is a fancy name to indicate the amount of disorder. Things naturally tend to get out of order for the simple reason that there are many ways of being in disorder and only few of being in order. Therefore random motion disorders: if you shake a box full of numbered balls you do not expect then to find them in the right order given by their numbers. The big surprise of the physics of time direction is that this disordering appears to be the single and only source of the difference between past and future.

    the growth of entropy is the only law of physics that distinguishes the past from the future

    Both from

    The Direction of Time,

    Hans Reichenbach

    For thoughtful mulling

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  17. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    paddoboy;
    Exactly, the time coordinates are relative to the observer, and not a mystical magical
    something, that arranges/coordinates events. The cause of events is not 'time'
    but physical processes in place throughout the universe. The laws do not vary from an
    observers motion, but time does!
    The reference from Scott & Powell is a good analogy, like numbers, it's a human convention.
     

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