If you have given up Buddhism - how come?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by greenberg, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    This could have a different source, though - It is not about "repressing" or "avoiding" or "denying" emotions as you tend to put it. It is about (1) a different social conditoning and (2) maintaining equanimity. I asked you earlier about the Four Sublime Attitudes and provided some reading, but you didn't reply.


    Somehow I'm getting the impression you think those people are mean or brutish or hating themselves.


    Yes, by "mind" I mean something much broader than what seems to be the common "Western" understanding of mind. "Mind" is anything I can think of. It leads me to communication problems sometimes.
    "Heart" and "mind" also are the same to me.


    In short: overcoming the denial and the discomfort that otherwise accompany particular thoughts.


    Let's be realistic here. Perhaps there is some more talk about particular uncomfortable topics nowadays than seemed to be the case in history. But the way these things are talked about today is for the most part not helpful and is misleading.


    You seem to think those people had all the same emotions and desires that we do nowadays. And that emotions and desires have to do with our "true nature".

    I don't think so - our emotions and desires are strongly shaped also by our social conditioning. Were it not for Shakespeare and Byron and soap operas and the likes, do you really think people would have all sorts of emotions and desires in the first place? I don't think so.

    If I watch romantic films or read thrilling books or read horrible stories in the newspaper or am in the presence of a very emotional person - my psyche tends to reciprocate the emotions.
    But does this mean that those emotions have been there in me already or are my "true response"?
    I don't think so. I think this is a case of mirroring emotions, emotional contagion. It comes automatically, and because we do it so often, we aren't aware of it and consider it our own or natural.


    I hope you still came back to read my reply.
     
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  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    at a guess, eternal existence not subject to repeated birth and death
     
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  5. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    that's impossible because everything changes
     
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  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    what makes you say that?
    Your experience of everything?
     
  8. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    1,888
    yes, in the East I think it is a different social conditioning, though I found those qualities tended to be stressed even more by Buddhist monks and teachers than the population at large. It was also stressed directly in relation to me and other students. Expression of emotions often did receive a direct or indirect suggestion to 'maintain equanimity' or something similar. Since this behavior/state was seen as something other than expressing emotions, I can only conclude that it was seen as better not to express emotions.

    I'll take a look at those.



    More: uneccessarily judgemental and superior to those who do not judge or control their natural reactions to the same degree.




    How about the chakras below the heart?






    The way everythign is talked about is generally unhelpful and misleading. Nevertheless we have been not only talking about but acknowledging the reality of these things and taking steps (many bad, some good) to heal the damage caused by them. If you don't think it is different now, we can just leave it as we disagree.




    I am not assuming that. I would guess that. If they didn't then their ideas of what ends suffering apply to me even less.

    Yes, I do think emotions and desires are part of our true nature. Or expressions of it that, if repressed as a rule, constricts and distorts our true nature. I think this is a place we disagree and there's not much more to say.

    The sorts of emotions, yes. I think we would get angry, be jealous, get sad, and so on.

    We are social animals, most of us, and as far as I know we've been emotional all the way back. Animals seem rather emotional to me, at least the mammals. I can't prove this and see no need to. This seems to be the fundamental difference between us. You do not consider emotions a part of yourself or an expression of yourself. I do.
    This does make a good fit with Buddhism for you as I suggested before.
    It seems ironic to me that you object to what I see as Buddhisms admonishment to disidentify with and control emotions while at the same time trying to convince they are not really us or expressions of us.
    It seems like you could acknowledge what I am saying about emotions in Buddhism and then say why you think they are right. This other approach seems confusing. Like you want cake and eat it too. I may be misunderstanding but that is how I am coming away from this post.
     
  9. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know much about "chakras" and I don't use that term to describe phenomena.


    I think you are accusing Buddhism and Buddhists of something they are not doing.
    And I think you are rejecting Buddhism for something that isn't true about it.

    I have decided to take this personally so as to make a point as far as communication between us is concerned.


    You said earlier in this thread:

    How then can you say

    -?


    What makes you so sure they are

    - ?


    Surely, if you apply Buddhst teachings as you understand them, then the results are not favorable to you.

    You are the one who wants to have the cake and eat it too.
     
  10. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,888
    Part of the reason I rejected Buddhism was that if directly addressed on the issues of emotions most but not all Buddhists say emotions are not bad. But in their behavior and reactions to the expressions of emotions they reacted as if they were bad, especially the so called negative ones.

    If you are now identifying as a Buddhist - and it was not clear to me you did, then I suppose my criticisms would include you. You did give me a link describing emotions using a contagion metaphor. I find that metaphor offensive.
    Christianity to Buddhism
    Sin as contagion -------> emotions as contagion
    Expression of desires, bad ----------> desire is the root of suffering (I note the shift to practical rather than moral, but in practice, I found them to be the same. )

    Have you been a part of Buddhist groups? Have you spent time with other Buddhists? If not, why not? It was certainly seen as a good idea by practically every Buddhist I met. Is it possible that my interpretation of being in Buddhist groups and with Buddhists is correct? I can't tell if you've een spent time with other Buddhists. ARe you basing you assumption that I am wrong on what you've read? If you have spent time with them and found it to be different then I understand your reaction to me better. But suddenly I wondered if you even had.

    I am not a Buddhist. I can see where perhaps like Wes suggests, I should have talked more in terms of seeming. I based my reactions on a lot of experience of a wide range of Buddhist setting and people. I did not, eventually, like the vibe at all. They sure as shit seemed judgemental about emotions. I hang out with a bunch of neopagans - not that they are really my group either - and no one purses their lips when I express some anger or talk about my fears or sadness. I rarely feel treated like I have influenza if I express a strong emotion - and this is not simply a jab, the reactions are really quite similar, often, to someone coughing and clearly contagious. I don't feel the urge to restrict my gestures and facial muscles like I do at a temple or even having tea at a cafe with Buddhists. (not in absolute terms, but to a degree) I enjoy the rich experience of emotions and find held in emotions vastly more triggering and unpleasant. Even if it is tough going at times, it feels grounded and real and intimate. I cherish the relationships where we are direct and trust each other with what we feel, all the feelings not just the 'good' ones. This includes moment of non-verbal and fairly loud expression. It has taken time to work towards, but I have found the results wonderful. I would go further and say that this expression both on my own and with my wife and with my friends and acquaintances has been magical.

    You don't think your emotions are really you. OK. I honestly do consider that possible for you and my apologies for my inclusive language. I have tried to get a read on what you wanted from life and when it seemed like it was Buddhism I supported that direction. In this thread I wanted to respond to what in you might be seeking something else. It seems like even if my reactions to and sense of Buddhists were correct - as far as controlling emotions and having negative reactions to their expression, in general way that is - this might not be a problem for you. So the reason I left Buddhism is not likely to be important for you and so I will leave the thread.

    As far as their reaching their goal, my intuition, for what it is worth, is that one can reach that goal and that their system works. It is my best guess that it is not a goal I want to achieve.
     
  11. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    I couldn't call myself a Buddhist. But that doesn't mean I can't recognize some unfounded criticism of it. The motivations that you impute for why some people do what they do - if they actually would have those motivations, they would not be practicing Buddhism.

    The thing is that you are extending similar implications to me and to other people here. That is, if we seem to be "held back" and "unemotional" this is likely due to our "hating ourselves and being judgmental". You might as well accuse us of egotism, vanity and so on. Bottomline, it doesn't help.
    You probably mean well, but it makes communication difficult.

    And note that if you suggest you know a way that is better than, say, Buddhism, expect to be hard-pressed to prove it truly is so.
     
  12. sniffy Banned Banned

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    The best way of all is your own way as you are a unique individual. All other 'ways' exist only as guidelines because what is applicable to one will be manifestly different when applied to another.
     
  13. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    1,888
    I thought when you took it personally that was what you meant.

    No. I find the internet is not a medium where I get this impression. There is no body language to read. Body language says at least as much as the content of people's words, I include tone of voice also. I do not always accept the content of people's words if other parts of their communication are saying something different. (and yes I recognize that one must conclude with caution here). So I had not in fact drawn some conclusion about you, in fact one of your first responses to me, way back when, seemed rather on the expressive end of emotions, given the medium. But even that is hard to draw conclusions from. This is a very limited and self-edited medium.

    In in-person interactions I do draw conclusions about what people are feeling and thinking despite, sometimes, what they are saying.

    I know a way that is vastly more effective me and those I referred to. But one) I did not come here to sell and 2) I made it pretty clear above that I think Buddhism is effective, in fact my intuition is that even its final goal is attainable by that system; I do not think I share the same goal.

    I do hope you have raised your issues with Buddhism on Buddhist forums also.
     
  14. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,888

    And this is an excellent point. Perhaps what you, Greenberg, think of as Buddhism needs to be developed or added to in some way for you. Perhaps later this will turn out to have been a part of Buddhism. I can't see why you would quit something that you speak with such certainty about in other threads: the benefits of the meditation for example, which most teachers would consider the core of Buddhism anyway.
     
  15. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    As far as I know Buddhist forums, a topic like in this thread would not be permitted there and the poster banned.
    Or, in the best case, one gets dismissed with platitudes.

    That's why I came to a forum like this - to actually be able to raise the topic.
     
  16. elsyarango Registered Member

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    buddhism isnt real. there is no such thing as reincarnation. they have alot of good ideas but its not anything worth practicing.
     
  17. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all...not the good ones anyway.
    Even in Buddhist monasteries people are constantly struggling with their practice. Dealing with it is part of Buddhism.

    Even the life stories of the greatest adepts are filled with failures and discouragement.

    Remember this is not a religion...its work!
     
  18. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

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    1,117
    Yeah that's basically what i was alluding to myself earlier.

    Using any system of thought as a catalyst for change makes absolute sense, i think where people become uhstuck is when they become over-attached to these system of thoughts as a means unto themselves.
    Theyre just guidelines to help you work it out for yourself, theyre not supposed to contain the entirety of who you are and what youre about.
     
  19. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    what makes you think your ideas are good and worth practicing?
    (apart from the fact that they are your ideas)
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    granty

    about buddhism and emotions

    understand what it is you actually profess to dislike.....the application of the scientific method as a mode of understanding and contemplation

    its ok tho
    wallow in a morass of your own making. good luck
     

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