I'm ashamed of some of my fellow Australians

Discussion in 'World Events' started by jack54, Dec 12, 2005.

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  1. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    Mountainhare: this is the orginal post I responded to:

    Originally Posted by Krieg Order
    I was pointing out that the Aussies were, in fact, rioting. Since you both apparently disagree, lets get down to the crux of the issue (and I think it's stupid that we even have to go into this); were they?

    The first 2 meanings of 'riot':

    riot
    n.
    1. A wild or turbulent disturbance created by a large number of people.
    Law.
    2. A violent disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled for a common purpose.

    There were about 5,000 people at the original Cronulla 'incident'. By any standards they created a 'wild or turbulent disturbance'. Violent? They attacked random people of middle-eastern appearance. They were also, clearly, assembled for a common purpose.

    How can you possibly deny they were rioting?! I can understand all the arguments of why, but why would you contend this basic, basic fact?
     
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  3. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Question:

    After the group of Lebanese attacked the lifeguards, did the mob target *only* that group, or rather anyone on the beach who looked 'middle eastern' (whether or not they sided with the attackers)?

    AFAIK, mob violence only exacerbates problems.

    No need to 'nail your eyes to the ground'-- just carry a gun and a can of mace.
     
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  5. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    FOR EVERY ONE! It is a good read. For all the people who wanted it to be a msulim terrorists mania, it is not quite what you are looking for and for the others who are interested in really finding out what happened and what is going on should read hte following. It will giveyou better idea and understanding of what has happened and why.

    There are gangs and violence in every country and very culture, it is fucking idiotic of blaming and calling it lebonease or arabic violence....

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_racial_tension
     
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  7. s0meguy Worship me or suffer eternally Valued Senior Member

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    I sense this was a eruption of anger that has been built on for quite a while, nothing more than that and I sympatize with both the attackers and victims, because the victims probably were innocent (or not, and they're just playing innocent, which is what I would expect if this took place in my country) and the attackers because they probably had lots of reasons to be angry. The only thing I don't agree with however is beating up innocent people and ambulance crew.
     
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This was a really great post.
    Thanks.

    Would you suppose that the best way to over come this tribal tendency is to integrate into the society?

    If so, is it possible to integrate into a primarily Christian society and remain Muslim? Hindu? Shinto? Buddhist? Why is it that the Chinese that have migrated here have been successful for the most part while the Lebanese have not? Is it that the quality of person migrating is different? I mean most Chinese migrants are Cantonese and potentially were educated or at the least business orientated. (Isn’t’ Prosperity is one of three wishes at Chinese new year?) Or is it that Chinese and Aussie beliefs are quite similar? I know a lot of Cantonese Xians here.

    Should Australia, a country with a small population, take a large number of war ravaged refuges? Can we? What does that say to the Geneva convention?

    Lets suppose:
    I wonder how the Japanese, whom are sometimes bitched about anyway, were here worshipping their Emperor as a God, wearing traditional warrior hairstyles, blacked teeth, shaved eyebrows kimono and all. Women shuffling by in kimonos, blacked teeth, shaved eyebrows and outlandish makeup. What would Aussies think if they were ? What would people think if they were 6% of the population and growing. Lets say they also gave praise to their Emperor-God, some of who wishing destruction on Australia for WWII, all the while instructing their fellow Aussie-Japanese that they are much more superior to the lazy fat Aussie. That their women are pristine and virtuous while Aussie girls slutty and nutty.

    Then one day a nutty Japanese knifes an Aussie .... Samurai style.

    I can tell you. People’d poop their pants!

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    Incidentally, a number of Greek and Muslim buddies have expressed their worry that there are too many Asians here! Kind of funny huh? Except the one Muslim buddy dating a Catholic Philippian (and hidding it from his mom and dad – he's 28) well he’s fine with Asians

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    What happens when countries like France or The Netherlands begin to have populations with 40 or 50 or even 60% more migrants with a different culture than their own? Will all Hell Break Lose?

    Is Sydney just a micro-version of what lies ahead when large (>30%) populations of migrants with very different beliefs refuse to integrate?





    As they used to say: "When in Roman, do as the Romans."

    I'm sure back then, in a society where punishment was the norm, they figuredout in a hurry that worshipping a different religion, wearing weird clothing and being poor was a quick means to a trip to the coliseum. Sure if you were “rich” and of such a minority that your “uniqueness” becomes “exotic” then Romans would have loved you. But be poor and of a large minority and … … … … "Is that a gladius in your pocket or are you just happy to see me”

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  9. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    Answer : In Australia we dont know if this attack actually took place , all we know is that Sydneys Telegragh newspaper is the main culprit fanning this cowardly Naziesque crusade against vulnerable minorities .
     
  10. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    True. And in the ancient greek Polis, immigrants were absolutely not allowed (with the exception of slaves.)
     
  11. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    Xerxes:
    The mob riots occured a number of days (a week, I think) after the Lebanese attack on the lifeguard. They attacked anyone with dark skin, completely regardless of whether they had anything to do with it (most of those attacked were probably against that sort of gang violence). That's my whole problem with this: it wasn't so much about the individuals who perpetrated the crime, it was 'we want all middle-easterns out!'.

    I agree entirely. They didn't acheive anything, they just lost allies, incited retaliation attacks and pretty much lost any hope they ever had of making some constructive changes. We live in a democratic society! There are plenty of ways of getting your view across that don't involve unruly and random mob violence and law breaking!


    Michael:
    Interesting point. One thing people often forget is that even though we have a small population on a massive country, a real lot of it is uninhabitable (it's desert). For this reason, we probably couldn't take on as many people as one would automatically assume: our rescources couldn't really handle it. I'm basing this on a conversation I had about it with someone once, but I don't really know much about it. Can anyone add something?

    I honestly can't see anything like this happening in Melbourne. The main reason is we don't have the segregated racial ghettos that Sydney has.

    I hate all this talk of 'integration'; as I've stated before, I love living alongside other cultures! Maybe I just have a soft spot for all the good food, but I'd hate to see them all adopt an 'Aussie' way of life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2005
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Michael:

    You're making a number of assumptions here. First, you assume that migrants have "very different beliefs". At the most basic level of moral values, I don't believe that anybody has "very different beliefs". All societies recognise certain behaviours as criminal, for example.

    Secondly, you're assuming that the Lebanese people who are the subject of this thread, to take one example, have "refused to integrate", despite the fact that many of them were born in Australia, have lived there all their lives, gone to Australian schools, worked alongside other Australians etc. etc.

    You, and some other people here, seem to define "integration" as wholesale adoption of your own practices and opinions, which, of course, are unquestionably the "correct" behaviour and opinions everybody else ought to have. Somebody who doesn't like the Rugby, or doesn't drink Fosters, or doesn't have a Christmas BBQ in the back yard must be "refusing to integrate".

    There is another view: that Australian culture has been immeasurably enriched as it has become a melting pot of different nationalities choosing to make Australia their home. This also happened in America, with the mass immigration especially in the early 20th century - a fact that many Americans choose to ignore. Is it surprising that the most enlightened and progressive US states are today the ones which have had the most immigration from other countries?

    Maybe what is really needed is for the people living in a cultural bubble to start doing some "integrating" of their own.
     
  13. Harlequin Banned Banned

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    I am the very model of a modern human animal,
    believe in all things moderate, social or political
    I represented the peaceful left in university
    and responded with great patience when they said they dont agree.

    My temper is quite restrained, I make sure they all see,
    A picture of refinement, with a love of diversity.
    Black white, yellow, pink, I love them one and all
    And I'm waiting for the moment when the Right will finally fall.

    I believe in melting pots, world peace and Humanism,
    Paci-, Femi-, and of course, Multicultural-friggin'-ism
    That is why I moderate, my beliefs have brought me far,
    Most liked me well enough to vote
    for the man known as James R.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    James R,

    I really don't know.


    I love Greek Town.
    I love Little Italy.
    I go to China Town regularly.
    I eat Thai regularly.
    I eat Indian regularly.
    My partner is Japanese
    I eat Japanese regularly

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    I have Lebanese’s friends, all of whom are smart nice people.

    But there is something there. They have a big chip.

    Maybe people with families from those other countries have a feeling of pride in their heritage? Certainly many Indians I know are happy to return and work. They love it here but love India as well. Maybe that's it? Pride in where you’re from.

    You know, some Lebanese-Aussies I know pretend they're Italian.

    I suppose there isn’t much to be proud of if your from Lebanon? Combined with Imams telling you that Jews and Xians and Hindu’s are to blame for this and that .. .. .. well I don’t know. Maybe that’s some of it?

    Like I said, all of the above pre-mentioned peoples had some hurdles to getting integrated. But they integrated. Not that they gave up their heritage. They didn’t. And shouldn’t have to. But they are making the place better. That’s what I meant by “integrate”. It seems the Arab/Lebanese are better and making excuses than pulling their fingers out and making something.

    Not all mind you.

    But there definately is something in the culture or religion or somewhere??
     
  15. jack54 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    130
    Well that's the question: is there something in the culture or religion, or is it some misguided youths/individuals giving them all a bad name? I'd say it's the latter.
     
  16. Teri Curious Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    608
    Skywalker,

    As someone who lives and travels through these suburbs regularly, I can confirm the writer's article.

    With all the tangents that are being taken within this thread, your link leads to the most accurate overview of the situation I've read. Good find.

    Cheers
    Teri
     
  17. Happeh Registered Senior Member

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    1,263
    That neo nazi charge is the government's way of saving face. They don't want to the world to know that Australians have become racist in reaction to Howard telling them how bad Muslims are. Howard just scared everyone about how the muslims were going to blow up a nuke plant. Howard needed new dictatorial laws to prevent it.

    A month or so later, these riots happen. It is all Howards fault. He practically told all Australians, "middle easterners will kill us all by blowing up a nuclear reactor".

    It is not just me that sees this. News analysts see it too.

    The Australian government policies of alienation and ignorance of ethnic minorities and Prime Minister John Howard's draconian anti-terror legislations are to blame for the country's racial violence, social experts have concluded.

    Catholic priest Roy O'Neill, agreed.

    "His (Howard) racial profiling disguised as 'anti-terrorism' fed the emergence of this ugly aspect of extreme right-wing politics," he wrote in a letter in the Sydney Morning Herald on Wednesday.

    http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-12/15/article05.shtml
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    You think someone becomes a racist just because of a few words from someone? They just stop being nice guys and become racist just because PM Howard made a few speeches? If so, the Aussies must have been teetering right on the edge of vicious racism all this time, huh?

    Baron Max
     
  19. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Baron:
    That's right! The 'hate speech' of white leaders is ALWAYS to blame for attacks on particular races. The crimes, brutality and arrogance from extremists from the race being 'attacked' are NEVER to blame!

    If a black family lives in a predominantly white neighbour, and are continually abused and bashed by their white neighbours, we wouldn't blame them having a hateful and suspicious attitude towards the white race.

    But if a white family lives in a neighbourhood occupied by Lebanese Muslim gangs, and thus become suspicious of all Middle-Easterners and Muslims in that area, the world reacts with 'OMFG THE WHITE AUSTRALIANS ARE NEO-NAZIS!!11ONEONEONE ITS ALL HOWARDS FALT!!!11'

    Quite simply, the actions of some Middle-Eastern Muslims have planted the seeds of hatred. Now they reap the harvest. Kudos to them.
     
  20. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    130
    Understanding that point, it still doesn't make the mob's methods justifiable.
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Ahh, but that's not what you said ...nor is it what I posted about. Just to refresh your memory, this is what you said: "...Australians have become racist in reaction to Howard telling them how bad Muslims are."

    Note the "...have become...", meaning that before Howard made his speeches, they were NOT racists, then after the speeches, they "became" racists! ...as it racism is a communicable diseaes or something!

    From all I know of the Australian incidents, I would agree with that.

    And you'll notice that it also seems to be true in many other nations of the world!? Muslims immigrate, then expect to live and act exactly like they did in their former country, and worse, using their own laws! France is having major problems; England is in the throes of major racial tensions due to the Muslims not willing to blend into the predominate cultural society.

    Oh, I agree. But we also have to ask ourselves ...why would anyone want to live in an area where all of the people hate them and/or don't want them? Would YOU move you family into an area like that ...and stay there with everyone hating you and your family?

    Baron Max
     
  22. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Sure, .....but then many things in life are not "justifiable". But it does make it understandable.

    Baron Max
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure that there are a few misguided youths in all of the above mentioned groups.

    So I'm not so sure that is the best explaination?

    There is something more to it.

    Maybe it's peoples reaction to Islam and the goals of Islam? Maybe people feel threatened by another people who support those goals. One of which is a whole world that is Islamic. So they don't treat them in the same way as they'd treat another. Over the years tention builds up.

    That's one explaination.

    How else can we explain the difference b/w the way the Chinese have successfully integrated while the Arabs have not.

    I suppose if all the Chinese here were pushing for Australia to become part of a Communist ruled world centered in Bejing. If, for 5 times a day all Chinese stopped what they were doing and began praying for the day when the world was one big Communist country rulled by a Chinese communist general - well people'd have a problem wouldn't they?
     
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