I'm ashamed of some of my fellow Australians

Baron:

I know that! I was being sarcastic in response to the often heard remark that 'Little Johhny turned those Australians racist, and made them do it', which you were addressing. I'm sorry, sometimes I'm quite good at parodying politically correct morons, and should really state when I'm being sarcastic.

Quite simply, I agree with you 100%. It's ridiculous to blame John Howard for these riots, although many politically correct morons will do so to avoid the obvious reason. And that is, extremist thugs who refuse to assimilate.

Not all Muslims are like that, but I agree that extremists from their religion tend to be the most vocal and problematic in this day and age. It's ironic how some citizens of America, France and Britain are criticizing Australia's treatment of the 'poor Middle Easterners', given the fact that they are having exactly the same problems with extremist Muslims in their own countries.

Perhaps the extremist Muslims are the ones with the problem, instead of the multiple democratic countries which they claim 'oppresses 'them?

In fact, the extremists remind me of the little boy who just won't understand why nobody wants to be his friend. Why, EVERYONE is to blame except him.

But to be honest, the French, Australians, Americans and British are at partially to blame. We let this extremist shit in in the first place. Perhaps we should adopt Indonesian immigration policy?

Heh, who ever said that the mind of the extremist makes sense? An even more appropriate question is if you want to live in a country where politics and Islam mingle, why the hell would you move to a secular country?

Surely you would be better off in one of the 22+ Muslim countries around the world?

 

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To try and be a little more clear. I'm saying this:

Italian
Greek
Chinese
Indian
Japanese
Thai
Ukrainian
Russian
European
American
Kiwi
Samoan
etcetera....

All of these people seem to be assimilated. I'm sure each has their unruly youth. Yet, we don't have a problem with Italian, Greek, Chinese, Indian, Japanese, Thai, Ukrainian, Russian, European, American, Kiwi, Samoan, etcetera....

We do appear to have a problem with Arab-Muslims integrating. It's NOT just some unruly youth else we’d have problems with all of these other people from all these other cultures. We don’t appear to. That would suggest that there is a problem with Arab-Muslims integrating into Australia. Is that the fault of the Australian? The Arabs-Muslims? I really don’t know. But, I think some of it may have to do with the Australians feeling uncomfortable with Islam in principle. That’s not really going to change because Aussies don’t identify with Islam. Nor do they ever want to see a day when it’s a way of life here. Islamic peoples of course identify with Islam and would like to see it as a way of life here. That bothers Aussies and so they treat Arab-Muslims differently. Over time a pressure simple builds up.

I don’t think there is a problem at all with Arab-Christians. And there are a hell of a lot of Arab-Christians here. SO the logical conclusion is that Arab-Muslims are not fitting in with the Australian society. The only reason I can think is the wish for Islam to be the worlds religion.

So I’m not really talking about this small incident in Sydney. It’s really just a precipitate. I’m referring why it precipitated in the first place.

Can you offer another explanation?


Anyone?

 

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I hate it how people say that, i live in Sydney, and its not what you see on tv, this is only a bunch of drunk idiots at crunulla, if your going to think like that then next time i hear of anything in melbourne ill say the same thing back. Dont hate Sydney for what these stupid people have done. Its nice here. Surfies are the ones who should get lost.

 

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Your right, but with all the media coverage of the 'surfies' they are what represent australia to many, somewhat ignorant peolpe.

I know this is not the case, however the fact remains that with such coverage this is what peole come to expect.

I too would hate this if i lived in australia, or any other country with the same problem.

 

Well, it's just as well you don't live in Australia then isn't it John Smith! Also Australia is spelt with a capital 'A' - I thought I suggested you use spell-check??

 

John Smith appears to be insulting part of his anatomy people!! What a weirdo!!

 

LOL, I'm sorry, that was a lame joke, I just couldn't resist! I love Sydney too

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Perhaps originally in this thread I didn't achnowledge fully enough what seems to be a greater problem than I thought. Maybe you are correct Michael. HOWEVER, this is still no cause for rioting!

 

lol ok

 

I'm wondering, whose cultural testosterone is actually estrogen?

 

I'm ashamed of those Lebanese guys who attacked the lifeguards. What a shitty time to be human!

Then again, I know that cultures don't mix, and I'm just waiting for the rest of the world to learn so much.

 

Oh, there's a few of us that know it. But the greater majority, it seems, can't see how it actually works in real life ...they prefer to live their lives in a liberal, doo-gooder fantasyland of dreams and happiness rather than face the facts.

Baron Max

 

No, it's crap. Plenty of cultures mix fine.

 

Thank you.

The tribal tendency probably can't be overcome, but only managed. But to almost overcome tribalism people should integrate. Also people should be tolerant of diversity.

Maybe most important is just for us all to be aware that we have tribal instincts so that we can consciously choose when to give in to our tribal instincts and when to resist our tribal instincts rather than just being unconsciously led by our instincts. I am drawn to go over and touch the pretty woman but I don't have to do it and being able to choose not to touch keeps me out of trouble. People from Victorian/Islamic or otherwise sexually repressed cultures seem to have a harder time behaving responsibly with their sexual urges. They can't seem to find the middle ground between being aware of and involved with sex and being unaware of and uninvolved with sex. I think tribalism might be the same way. The diversity repressed (if that is what the intolerant are) seem to go back and forth from being overly aware of differences and wanting to do something about them, to being unaware of differences and wanting to pretend the differences don't exist.

Yes. I don't know if Satanists could integrate but all of the mainstream religions share a basic sense of morality. The mysticism of the various religions also connects them. The pride of being the people with the only true religion devides the religions.

Jews, Jains, Parsees, and Roma have been minority religions /ethnicitys for thousands of years. Maybe you can't fully integrate if you are to survive as a subculture.

The attitudes of the majority religion also matters. If the majority does not want to tolerate diversity, then the minority will be forced to choose between trying to pass as part majority which means hiding or giving up any differences between them and the majority, or trying to survive as a disliked minority in which case they will probably retreat to ghettos so that they can relax at times by not being surrounded by people who are against them and so that they can support each others beliefs that they are the good guys and the majority are the bad guys.

When did they come? How were they first recieved? How big are their populations in the metro areas that they live in? Bigger populations may be slower to melt. Who did they move in next to? If you move into gang land your kids are going to be gangsters. I don't know much about Australia.

Sometimes it seems the Chinese response to pressure is to get quiet and work harder. Becomming rich is validation enough and there is no need to shout "fuck you" when somebody says, will you "fucking learn to speak english". For a more passionate person getting quiet and working harder might not work. Based on the few Australians and Lebanese that I have known, they shared the trait of not believing that it is not OK to take crap from anybody. Taking a joke is one thing, but taking actual crap is a challenge to ones manhood. The problem between Australians and Lebanese might be that they are too similar.

The Autralian people need to decide what they are comfortable with. Then they have to make ther politicians obey them. In the USA the majority of Americans clearly don't want as much immigration as we are getting. But the employers desiring cheaper labor have shown that they have more political clout than the majority of the people wanting less immigration do. It sounds to me like the same political dynamic controls immigration in Europe and the UK. Is this also what is going on in Australia?

In any country, that would definitely call for pants pooping, and then maybe some head smashing would also be in order.

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Normal chaos of the melting pot, but funny. Would be funnier, but not unbelievable if the unwelcome proud Muslim Australian thought there were to many East Asians and disliked Asians and then married a Catholic Asian.

Hell could break loose followed by a blending or followed by an expulsion or genocide. Or a peaceful blending of peoples and cultures could happen. Or the minority culture could be lost as the majority culture is taken on by the minority. It is like trying to predict the weather.

Historic France is a Celtic, Germanic, Latin Blend. Hell did break loose but blending and peace also happened. The culture and race that is French, of which the French are so proud, could not have come into existence if hell did not break loose and if the Celtic and Germanic and Latin had not blended.

Give it four generations. The third generation rarely learns their grand parents language. Most of the fourth generation will marry people of other ethnicities. That is how it has been in the USA.

American Jewish Parents may not like seing their kids marry gentiles but absent antisemitism they can't stop the mixed marriages. There were always mixed marriages which is how European Jews ended up looking like Europeans. Those Jews that Hitler killed were more German than they were Jewish. A few hundred years from now Australia might have a minority people 75% descended from anglo-Australians who think they are Lebanese Muslim Australians. Anything can happen as the weird circumstances of future history unfolds.

These Lebanese Australian kids who refuse to assimilate are probably already very Australian culturally. Different peoples melt at different temperatures in the melting pot. If Australians really want the Lebanese Muslims to integrate, then the very best thing Australians could do would be to stop worrying about it. The integration will happen.

Don't tell them to hurry though, because "what, are you saying there is something wrong with being a Lebanese Muslim? Those are fighting words."

And yet Rome became a Christian Nation. You never know how persecution will turn out. The Romans wanted to scare people out of being Christians and instead gave Christians the opportunity to gather converts by impressing people with the depth of their faith in the face of persecution.

 

Name a few! History is full of examples to the contrary, but there are damned few cultures that have "mixed well" in human history. It would be nice, however, if you'd just name of few good examples of peaceful "mixtures".

Baron Max

 

There are lots of cultures living peacefully all over the world. Since I live here, I'm thinking of Melbourne right now, but any city has multiculturalism, and within that definitly examples of those cultures living peacefully side by side.

 

Yeah, well, Paris was "living peacefully" for a while, huh? And what happened there just recently? Did it change your ideals of that "peaceful mix of cultures"? If not, why not?

And one can also point out the many, many areas of the world that SEEM to be living peacefully togehter, then ...WHAM... the cultures/races clash and major conflicts arise. That's not what I'd call "peaceful", would you?

Baron Max

 

You brought up a couple of examples where it's apparently not working, but that's not to say it's not doing fine elsewhere. Besides, the Cronulla incident didn't just 'suddenly happen', there was a lot of buildup. So no, I don't think multiculturalism working elsewhere in the world is some sort of facade for a deeper, darker reality where we are all on the edge of racial/cultural conflict.

 

So ...I ask you again ...please point out some of these areas/nations of the world where multi-culturalism/multi-racialism is working so wonderfully. I really am interested because it's a special study of mine. Just a few weeks ago, someone, I believe it was James R., pointed out how wonderfully intergrated Australia was ......and look what's happened in just those few days/weeks?? See what i mean? See why it's of interest to me?

Baron Max

 

Okay: Melbourne, where I live. Multiculturalism has worked fine here. We have many many Asians, Greeks, Italians, Middle-Easterners etc. and it's fine.

I know you think I'm a 'bleeding heart liberalist' or something, but I honestly think it works. Perhaps because I'm a white Aussie living in a predominantly Chinese populated suburb.

 

Those "other" people don't live in ghettos or sub-standard housing? Do they have equal access to all of the jobs and careers? Is their schools the same standards as all others? How many of "those people" have positions within the government? Do "those people" live in groups, or are they scattered throughout the areas of work and housing?

Hmm? ..."predominantly Chinese populated suburb"?? See? That says a whole lot to me.

The thing you fail to realize is that many areas of the world were like that ...until the shit hit the fan! Like in Paris? Or now in Sydney? Or in Yugoslavia? Or now in (put in the name of a recent city!)?

Birds of a feather flock together. And that ol' wives tale is holding true even today, even while people like you fail to see it or realize it. And the only thing that can and does happen is that the shit will eventually hit the fan ...and cultural groups will conflict with other cultural groups. Ditto for racial groups. It seem inevitable, and happens all the time, in various parts of the world.

Bleediing heart liberal? No, you just seem like one who sees the world thru rose-colored glasses, that's all. You can't see reality for all the pretty, rosey colored things going on around you.

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Baron Max