Immigration Crisis or an Economic Opportunity?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Wrong. Fiat requires the threat of violence as coercion, we use a fiat currency, not a money. That said, there are forms of money out there. Let's see if they don't replace fiat currencies over time (particularly given the fantastic job central bankers are doing at undermining and eventually destroying their own currencies).

    That's the great thing about technology, including money, it's always changing, often improving for the better.
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    All money requires the backing of governmental power. Even parasite currencies, like bitcoin, require legal defense.

    Anything traded for its intrinsic value alone is a commodity. Words and their definitions again, reality and its inconvenient facts - - - -
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Not all socialism is Statist, and not all socialism is Authoritarian. Progressive or otherwise (the term has no meaning in your posts anyway).

    Sweden's economy is a regulated capitalist one, dominated by private capitalist corporations with clear legal and governmental standing, so there is a problem describing its government as "Socialist". That has to be qualified.

    So both your premises are screwed up, to the point of being technically false.

    But of course Sweden's government is the government of a State, therefore Statist, and I would agree it is more Authoritarian than Libertarian - to that side of the midpoint of that axis. So your conclusion is defensible, even with the screwed up premises.

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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Then this'll be easy, provide an example of a 'Socialist' society which does not allow for those in Authority to legally initiate violence against morally innocent people of said society.

    Oh, that's too funny. Didn't take long to toss Progressive Paradise Sweden under the bus.

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    It should be noted, to be Capitalistic, would require capital savings in the form of money. Our economies are based on fiat-currency, issued through debt by our central planers at our central bank and backed up by State violence. At least we agree, Sweden (like the USA) is not a free-market. But a highly regulatory-captured market filled to the brim with rent-seekers, fueled by T-Bonding the labor of unborn Swedes (thus the need for laborers, here in the form of refugees). Lets see how that works out for our Progressive Paradise.
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    From, the Washington Examiner: Poor illegal immigrants get food stamps denied to poor U.S. citizens, $2 billion worth.

    Illegal immigrant households tapping into the federal food stamp program are receiving $1.4 billion to $2.1 billion a year despite their ineligibility, according to a new analysis of the Agriculture Department program. And rules guiding who can get food stamps favor households with illegal immigrants over all-U.S. citizen homes, according to the detailed report from the Center for Immigration Studies released Monday morning.

    This is, IMO, seemingly insane. Oh wait, this is a Government-run program, then it makes total sense. Anyway, just a look into your future Sweden. Just wait until the extended families begin arriving - thems pricey. Time to tighten in the belt. Thank the gawds for "Democratic" Progressive Socialism. Bernie Sanders style.
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    As pointed out to you the last four or five times you tried that little stunt, Progressive Socialist Sweden is your invention, and nobody else's. I've been correcting that mistake of yours for months now - if I could toss it under a bus, it would have been gone from your posts long ago.
    Money is a convenience, certainly, but not a requirement. People routinely accumulate capital in the form of land, machinery, even commodities such as gold or pork bellies.
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    You haven't provided an example of a 'Socialist' society that is not Authoritarian.
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    No True Scotsmen around these here parts.

    Not only is non-capital using fiat-consuming Sweden a classic example of Progressive "Democratic" Socialism, it's the poster-boy (ohhh ooooohhh I mean, poster-person

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    ) The Clarion call for more State Regulation of its Peons.

    The "Scandinavian Miracle" they called it. Which reminds me of the roaring-20s and why I said, I predict, Sweden will be the first (not the last) "modern" Western economy to collapse. That's my hypothesis. Let's see if it happens.

    I said money is capital, not that capital is money.

    Some swans are white birds, this does not imply that all white birds are swans. And money has more properties than just being capital which make it different from fiat currency.
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Swedes are not Scotsmen. How many times do you need telling?
    Not in my posts. That's your notion on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays and Fridays you talk about the great prosperity of Sweden being based on its establishment of market capitalism as the basis of its economy - the same economic setup it has now.
    You said that a capitalist economy required a commodity-based currency, which you describe as "real money" because you are superstitious about gold and the like. (You get a magical sense of "real money" from commodity based currencies - like one of those fairy stories where a magic charm needs wool to turn into gold, you require your government fiats to work their magic on a commodity.)

    It doesn't. The medium of exchange is of little direct relevance.
    Too late. The Great Depression happened in the 1930s - but not to Sweden. The US economy crashed in 2008 - along with several others, but not Sweden's. Iceland. Greece. Mexico. Germany. Russia. Argentina.

    Sweden's already made it 150 years. Nothing that happens now can wipe that off the books.
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    But they are Progressive Socialists.

    We are all still waiting for you to provide a few counter examples of 'real' socialist countries.

    Here's a few you can pick from:
    - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
    - Democratic People's Republic of Korea
    - Nationalsozialismus Germany
    - Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela

    and Swedish: Konungariket Sverige.

    Socialism takes many forms. Now, Sweden being the most Progressive of the modern 'democratic' socialistic Nation States, let's see how their economy plays out. My hypothesis is, they will be the first major Western Nation State to collapse. Probably like a line of dominoes across Europe.

    Possibly ending the EU. Not the Nation State though, that'll just look like any old American Ghettoized State. See Democrat-run Detroit MI for a zoomed in example of what to look for. Or Democrat-run Chiraq IL for another.

    Firstly, the most prosperous periods of Swedish history correlate when there is less regulation and more freedom / free markets.

    Secondly, Sweden is not capitalistic. They have a Progressive Central bank and use fiat currency with a Progressive Income Tax. They're also not a free-market, they're a highly regulated society with all manner of Progressive legislation regulating who can do what and to whom.

    Thirdly, with the exception of the most egregiously Socialistic cesspits, all Nation States have benefited from the second industrial revolution, and "The" Age of Oil. It's pretty hard not to maintain some level of economic progress when you're pumping unlimited energy out of the ground. Of course, the planet itself is the price to pay.

    No I didn't.

    I said there's a difference between money and fiat currency. There's also similarities. Just as a white car and a white bird, share similarities. They're both white. They both move. Etc... A car is not a bird.
    And? I said OUR Central Bank caused OUR Great Depression.

    Guess what? Zimbabweans Central Bank destroyed the value of their fiat currency. Amazingly, this had little effect on the US economy for various reasons.

    Our Central Bank caused the roaring 20s, which led to the Great Depression. It should be noted, they didn't mean to cause the roaring 20s. Their intention was only to reinstate the peg for the pound to gold ration at a value equivalent to what it was pre-WWI. The unintended consequent was that investment flowed into the USA.

    As for the time it takes. AND? It's estimated much of navel gazing Europe will not be ethically Europeans in 180 years. Some things take a long time to play out. Eventually Europe will look pretty much like the middle east; See: Constantinople / Istanbul Turkey for an example of future Europe. That's going to take time. But don't worry, it'll get there. And, in many places, already is. Yay European Progressives.

    The modern day Drug War, led on from the AMA legally (immorally) giving themselves a monopoly over Rx.. Which can be seen in pain-pill addicted "modern" America and our PIC, the largest in human history. It took 5 decades to get from there to here and many more decades to continue. For the AMA to have that ability, 5 decades ago, well, the AMA didn't just pop into existence - that itself took their unconstitutional licencing scam in the early 1900s. You can thank the Progressives of the late 1800s for that one too.

    So, yeah, some things take awhile to play out. What of it?

    European socialists distorted their economies with a bunch of free-shit. Which is how Progressive Socialists get elected**. This resulted in their not having the children to pay for all the free-shit. Thus, the immigration crises - which they mistakenly think will fill the coming labor shortages. See, it takes 18 years to raise a new Tax Cow, but only a day to fly one in.

    Let's see how Socialism plays out in northern Europe. Remember to thank your Progressive Socialist Politicians for your ghettos - but, don't worry, you'll have time to normalize.

    Just as we did, and you can see how well that's working out for us.

    ** Hence the Democrats love of a permanent Welfare Class. Which is why they LOVE hyper-regulations (not just them, the GOP have their Welfare Class too).
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The Swedish economy is, and has been for 150 years now, based on market capitalism.
    So you lost track of the last few times. Ok. I'll select from your list; countries with essentially or predominantly socialist economies. The USSR would be one, of course. And North Korea. Nazi Germany would not be another - fascism rests on corporate capitalism.
    Yes, you did. Your term for it is "real money", in contrast to money that has no commodity base, which you (and many other people) call "fiat money". Juvenile, of course, but there's no talking you out of it.
    And I pointed out to you what that difference was: your superstitious belief in the magical powers of commodity basing.
    Now what? I'm not even going to bother factchecking that - you're never, and I mean never, factually accurate in such claims. Our privately owned and largely unregulated capitalist Central Bank probably did dumb things in the 1920s, just as the privately owned banks with Central Bank functions did in Sweden in the mid 1800s before the government took over and created 150 years of prosperity. And counting. But it probably didn't do that, or it wasn't important when it did, or something.
    As far as the Gold Standard and the Great Depression, here's a graph:
    It worked fine from the mid 1930s until it was abandoned, beginning in 1980 and the years afterwards. It brought the greatest stable increase in human prosperity the world has ever seen, on top of paying for WWII.

    Now it's being repealed, in stages, with consequences everywhere visible.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    The Swedish economy, like all economies benefited from the American-led Second Industrial Revolution and discovery that free energy goes a long way towards making humans very productive. You remember, when government schools had a function - to mass produce labor cogs. Well, that worked for a while. Not now. See, now you actually need to know how to read and write.

    Anyway, while free-markets with private money and regulation would have seen Sweden become a much wealthier nation with a sustainable economy, regulated markets with fiat currency and State expansion occurred instead. The ability for Swedes, and Germans, to participate in some aspects of the 'economy'/society freely, did help. Thank the Gods for them they didn't go full Socialism like the USSR or China.

    That said, Sweden is a Progressive "Democratic" Socalistic country. Not only that, but it's "THE" Poster-Boy for Progressive Socialism.


    Let's see how it turns out for them.

    Note: We're all still waiting for you to provide your examples of a Progressive Socialist Nation State. Oh wait, I forgot, much like there never was a True Islam or True Scotsman, we're still waiting for our Progressive Socialism to occur. But just you wait, once it does, milk and honey for everyone.

    Statism, Theism's ugly twin-sister.
    -- Me, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    CBSNEWS: Brother admits murdering model sister over "honor" lost to Facebook pics.

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    Oh yes, don't forget Western culture is really no different than other cultures, including a bronze-age superstition that had it's day in the sun, 1000 years ago and then promptly developed a 'culture' of 'keeping it in the family' culminating in a not so great IQ. Marry your first cousin for a few hundred years, not necessarily the smartest idea.

    But that's okay, because in a few hundred years Europe will look like the rest of the middle east.

    Enjoy the cultural relativism, while navel gazing, Europe

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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You keep changing the wording, after every time I provide you with a few examples, as in #271. Why is that?
    Both those countries chose to base their economies on market capitalism. And they became prosperous thereby - Sweden started no wars, so its prosperity was uninterrupted.
    They had private money and private regulation, for many years of abject poverty. Their rise in prosperity began with the government takeover of central banking functions and currency maintenance. You linked to the exact time and referenced the very economic changes made.

    So we have 150 years of steadily increasing prosperity, a small country with poor soil and a harsh climate and little in the way of natural resources save standing timber rising from abject poverty to one of the world's highest standards of living without military conquest or other unearned wealth being involved. That seems like a good example, worth learning from. I'll take that over science fiction style speculations with no real examples, from those who don't seem to have any idea what "socialism" even means, or why people set up systems of taxation for their communities.
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Let's continue here: You listed the USSR and North Korea as socialist economies.

    We can agree.

    Yay, you made a baby step

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    Please do us all the honor of listing Nation States with economics that fit in the category: "Progressive" Democratic Socialism.
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    "Progressive" is an ideological term. There is no such thing as a "Progressive" economy. There is no such thing as a "Democratic" economy either.
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    And there we have it, finally: No True Islam..... Errr, I mean Progressive Socialism. Or Scotsmen.


    I do agree, if taking the literal term "Democratic" then no, most modern Nation States are Republics. Of course that didn't stop B.Sanders from defining himself, and his movement, as Progressive "Democratic" Socialists. Wherein he often referred to the Scandinavian Miracles, such as Sweden. The Poster-Boy for Progressive Socialism. They have a Progressive Central Bank, a heavy Progressive Income Tax, lots and lots of Progressive regulations and have been run by Progressive politicians for decades. Which, as we'll see (or so I predict) will culminate in the economic collapse. Yes, they do have a highly regulated market were Swedes are given some Government limited options to express themselves within this highly controlled Progressive market. Being monoculture, they all somewhat aligned with one another - although inefficiently. Of course, once you begin down the Progressive Socialistic roads, it's very very hard to turn around. Less and less does the price mechanism accurately reflect reality. More and more regulations ensure it becomes difficult, even illegal, to turn around.

    Let's see how it turns out for Sweden. Let's see where Sweden's Socialists have led their country to.

    ** The Progressives gave us our Central Bank and Income Tax - their Ideology most certainly had an effect on the economy. They gave us our Great Depression. They ruined our markets with News Deals 1, 2 and 3 - many of which are still devastating markets within the USA. Progressivism is a disease of the mind. A marriage between immoral Government and Scientific predictability. Not to mention, the economy IS to some large extent, about ideology.
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You actually don't know the difference between an economy and a government, do you. You not only don't know what terms like "progressive" and "socialist" mean, you don't even know what they refer to.

    Sweden's had a market capitalist economy for more than 150 years.
    A Progressive central bank? WTF?

    Decades of continuously increasing prosperity - fifteen of them - under the governance of what you label "Progressive" politicians. Sounds like an example worth considering.
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    What are you on about? I asked you to provide an example of a Progressive Democratic Socialistic Nation State. You, quibbled over the word "Democratic'. Yes, it's true modern Nation States are Republics. Okay, then ANY Nation State with economics that fit in the category: Progressive Socialism. And, yet again, in a manner quite reminiscence to a theist's argument there's no 'True' Islam, you didn't provide an example. No no no.... see, there are no 'True' Scotsmen. Nope, 'Scotsman' is just an ideology.

    As for the Progressive beginning that underpin and gave us our Central Bank, the Federal Reserve - these are a matter of record. The 'Great' Progressive Thomas Woodrow Wilson, signed the Federal Reserve Act into Law thus establishing our Federal Reserve System, the Central Banking system with the sole authority to issue Federal Reserve Notes as legal tender. Of course, to give that paper 'value' the State needed to ensure all Americans pay a tax on their incomes. Thus, the State can by fiat / decree, enforce the value of these notes by forcing us to pay our Regulators in them. Our having to access these Notes, allows the government to manipulate society - passing a 'tax' on things it doesn't like (like smoking) or a tax break for things it thinks (at the time) are "Progressive" (like marriage). It also sells unknown trillions of legal debt-obligations to other countries (T-Bonds) so that it can shaft the next generation with the bills of the present (see Generation Baby, richest in human history). So, in 1913 Progressive Woodrow Wilson called for and obtained ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment to the US Constitution. Soon thereafter, April 1913, Congress proceeded to pass an income tax of 1% on incomes above $3,000 and applied surcharges between 2% and 7% on income from $20,000 to $500,000.

    Known as Progressivity. And YES, this POLITICAL act of GOVERNMENT has had a huge impact on the ECONOMY. It's transformed it.

    Since that time, with the Central Bank and Income Tax, and the full backing of the State's ability to legally initiate violence against morally innocent 'Citizens', the Progressive Authoritarians and so-called "Intellectuals" have enacted all sorts of "Progressive" visions of state-sponsored utopias; Government schools, Welfare Ghettos, Drug Wars and a Police State to ensure these Progressive Utopias are enforced.

    It should be noted, the Central Bank ushered in the roaring 20s by manipulated the price of gold, culminating in a bubble and finally the Great Depression. Then the Progressive's went into overdrive with New Deal after New Deal... that in turn culminating in WWII. Following that mess, the Central Bank has allowed the Government to go on adventure after adventure - squandering trillions and trillions of 'dollars' worth of resources on phony wars while our economy has become a rent-seekers wet dream rife with unimaginable regulatory capture.

    End results: Government Schools that shit out functional illiterates at a rate of 1 in 5; Generational Welfare and unimaginably violent Government-run Ghettos; hyper-regulated Healthcare that's the #1 reason you'll die (assuming you don't smoke), a literal Alphabet of police agencies NSA, FBI, CIA etc.. etc.. etc.... all used to ensure we live in our Government-mandated Progressive Socialistic Utopia, spying agencies that make 1984 look like child's play and never-ending-wars.

    All made possible thanks to Progressive Socialists.

    As for Sweden. They are the POSTER CHILD for Progressive Socialism. Yes, they have some 'free' markets - so did Communist China. AND? Yeah, you're free to decide when to pee. Big deal. Swedes have some highly regulated and limited ownership of their property. So what? You own your kidney - for now. That's far from a free-market and fiat currency is far from capital (see: Zimbabwe dollar).

    So, let's see where the Progressive Swedish Politicians have led Sweden. We're all quite curious. I know I am. I'm thankful that Europe is making such a magnanimous sacrifice of itself. The writing is on the wall, the century belongs to someone other than Western European culture. Which, I suspect, will look like Syria or Lebanon midway through these next 90 years. Hell, some parts already do.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    No, in the iteration at issue, your fourth or fifth different and mutually inconsistent wording, you asked me to produce this:
    I pointed out that there is no such thing as Progressive or Democratic "economics". Those are not categories of "economics". Those are categories of governance.

    After 150 years of uninterrupted gains in prosperity for the Swedish people, maybe they have recently made a serious error of some kind. It's possible. So?

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