# Immigration Crisis or an Economic Opportunity?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Oct 6, 2015.

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3. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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Government schooling is a good thing, obviously.
The Japanese have concentrations of poverty, homelessness, etc. They're just nicer, cleaner places. Your point?
No, we aren't.
Why are you confusing single payer medical insurance with government-run hospitals? Do you not know the difference, or are you intentionally misleading?
Their immigration policy - which is the problem, according to you - does have major features in common with Reagan's. But nothing mandates foolishness.
Only the problems, never the solutions, are similar between the countries of wingnut world.

The dozens of First World countries who have done better than the US have all of them - every single one - reduced the role of market economics in medical care delivery from its peak influence in the US.

Every single one.

So what works everywhere it's been tried - every single First World country its been tried in, and several Second World - will fail in the US, because why?

5. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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News From The Frontlines:

Essentially, a woman in a wheelchair was attacked and gang-raped by economic migrants, in Sweden, the wonderful Progressive "Democratic" Socialist Utopia (just ask B.Sanders). Of course, her attackers were immediately released - apparently because she sort of wanted it. Or, at least she didn't want it to stop bad enough to fight hard-enough. According to the rapists - and the Socialist State's Public Prosecutor (who's looking to tow-the-line and make another pay-grade as a Public "Servant" where all that matters it kissing the right arse cheek

. SO, while it is true your honour, she did said "No". But, geeee, after the third illegal economic migrant started taking his turn on her, she stopped saying anything. Didn't fight back at all. Maybe she wanted it your honour? Let's respect their culture and maybe let these poor refugees go? Don't forget "The Narrative" your Honour - wouldn't want to be called a "Racist" your Honour.

So, the State did what it does, and they were all immediately released into the public where they had a good laugh and probably set about looking for another person in a wheelchair to victimize. Oh, and not only that, they were moved to a new city where no one would know them - and also provided with very nice State provided accommodation, money to spend, and even their own police protection.

Seems very odd doesn't it?

Um, no.

This is absolutely perfectly rational behavior in a "Public" Institution. See, in the real world, Public "Servants" really don't make it up the feeding chain in a public institution, if they waste their time 'serving the public'. This is in ALL public institutions. ALL of them - everywhere. Across time and space

Thus, many/most Public Institutions are run by the worse of the worse - individuals you couldn't imagine spending longer than a few minutes with. None of these people could, in a million years, ever cut it in the free-market. They're just disgusting individuals and it's easy to notice. Lucky for them - they don't have to because they're "Public Servants" LOL. Not only that, they'll be greatly rewarded for their misdeeds.

His is normal behavior in a Public Institution.
VERY NORMAL

Here, let me post something (seemingly) unrelated: The Best Way Not To Get Tenure.
(if you think that place is bad, you should see some Medical Schools - medical doctors that graduate and lack the skill to find a freaken liver on an X-ray... LOL, that's true, common even.)

Maybe you're getting a little insight into the mind of the prosecutor up above? Yes, Politicians (like B.Sanders) make a living lying to you (and sometimes themselves) mainly promising free-shit and (importantly TOWING THE LINE). They happily look the other way. It's why you see B.Sanders out there supporting WarHarpy. They're the same species. Swim in the same pond-muck, eating their own excrement.

So, yes, the prosecutor's actions are perfectly inline with anyone wanting to achieve success in a Public Institution.

Anyway, let's watch as "The Case of Socialist Utopia Sweden", plays out across history. A sad story of another Progressive Paradise that ran out of other people's money to spend. In this case, they ran out of Tax Chattel to pay for (produce) all the promised obligations - the sweetest promises of which, going to the overly paid public 'servants' themselves, like our prosecutor up there.

My prediction is: Their cities will end up just like ours, for the same reasons, and they'll implement the same solutions - for the same reasons, with the same outcomes.

BAKED in the CAKE

Last edited: Oct 25, 2016

7. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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None of this crap from you is new - you've been posting various versions of it for years. The basic problem you have is that you never get your facts straight when they're easy to check, so when they are hard to check your readers just assume you've screwed something up again and click on by,

in my case, after checking to see if in post 343 you bothered to deal with anything in post 342, which of course you hadn't.

Try starting here:
"Note: Soon Germany will be like us, at this time, they'll be cutting social benefits - you can blame the Ghost of Reagan if it makes you feel better"
-> Their immigration policy - which is the problem, according to you - does have major features in common with Reagan's. But nothing mandates foolishness. <-
Nothing in Sweden's setup mandates foolishness either.

btw: http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/more-on-the-non-mystery-of-non-work-germany-v-us/ It's possible that Germany is not piloting itself up the same creek as the US, apparently.

bbtw: Enough - too many repetitions of this:
It's "toeing", not 'towing', ok? Now back to your rant on US illiteracy - - - -

Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
8. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Sweden and Germany are in the predicaments they are in due to Socialism. So are all the ex Soviet States. So is China. Not long ago numerous "economists" and various Progressive rags wrote about the wonderful Hugo Chavez and his Progressive Socialist State: Venezuela. Now they're eating their zoo animals. Socialism is a form of Statism, itself under the umbrella of Authoritarianism. Sure, it takes some time to play out, in some cases, multiple generations (see: North Korea). But play out it does.

As for Progressive Scandinavia. Without legal mass deportation of illegal economic migrants, Germany and Sweden will end up just like us. For the exact same reasons.

And we're a mess.

Incidentally, as I understand, gun ownership is shooting through the roof in Germany. I read upwards to close to a million Germans have finished their 1 year training and around 800,000 are now buying guns and loading up with ammo. You know where that doesn't happen? In Japan.

It would if Japanese were stupid enough to invite in the third world. Where, in some places, 1 in 3 men admit to raping women. Where homosexuals are murdered, atheists are murdered and women are legally beaten. But hey, the Virtue Signalling was good while it lasted. Why hasn't it happened in the East? I mean, Japan has a Progressive Bank and all the Socialist free-shit as in the West. Well, maybe because they don't have much of it. Japanese who don't work, don't get a lot of free-shit. Life it purposefully made painful. The elderly who didn't save and didn't look after their family - the do it tough. Real rough.

I'm sure there's a reason.

Just as there's a reason why so many Americans, well, I should say USA Citizens, own guns. And I would encourage any US Citizen to buy, own and train regularly in the safe use of a gun for personal protection. Particularly if you're an old Baby Boomer or Asian (both concidered easy targets in modern America - thanks Obamaa). Oh, and I'd also suggest crossing the street if you feel like things are not safe. Apparently in Germany, they're coming to the same conclusions, for the same reasons.

So, let's see where B.Sanders Progressive Social Utopias are in 5 years when the demographics shift. Then in 20 when things set in. As ethnic Germans are become minorities in their own nation. Well, at that point, they're no longer a nation, a State sure, not a nation. Yes, let's see how it works out for them. Being like us. At that point: No more free-shit.

See how it works?

Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
9. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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As for our Public Institutions. I have worked in many different countries, and if there's one thing that cuts across culture - it's corrupt, incompetent, boot-licking public 'servants' (LOL) who run billion dollar public institutions who have no clue as to what they are doing. None. Zero. In a free-market, they'd have been bankrupt decades ago. Lucky for them, they don't have to worry about providing value for money. Hell, they don't have to provide anything more than what the tick in the box says - and that's exactly what they do. The barest of minimums. Many have no idea what a T-Bond is, couldn't care less. Ha! I heard one suggesting how wonderful it would / will be when things are run like they are in China. Now, there's a place where you can get things done, for the good of your career.... oh, I mean, the people.

Anyway, a story as old as time. Government grows like the cancer it is, and finally consumes it's host, the public. The only thing keeping this shit ship afloat, is an ever expanding population. With more and more and more people - you can do anything as a public servant. 20 trillion dollars in free tax money can lift a lot of incompetent turds to the top, regulatory capture will keep them there.

Just watch out on the way down. It's a long fall from 20T

And if you think third world economic migrants coming for the free-shit, are going to make up tax base, I'd think again.
LOL

So a women stupidly shared a cab with an illegal economic migrant and then naively though he'd let her use his toilet and call it a night. Well, 5 men raped her for hours. HOURS. They kicked her out of her wheelchair, and each took turns on her. The prosecutor let them go. Not only that, they get a pretty sweet deal. A house and money to spend.

So. My point wasn't about the woman. It was about the Prosecutor. Why did he let them go? Because he's Virtue Signalling to those above him. Who, themselves, are just like him. He wants them to know that he's more than happy to turn a blind eye to justice, if it'll advance his career. And why not? He's a PUBLIC SERVANT. It's not like he's going to lose his job. It's not like he has to provide value for money. No. You pay your tax. He spends your money as HE sees fit.

That's the deal.

It's called Socialism.

Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
10. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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24,431
And since you have no adequate vocabulary to discuss or think about such situations, you label them all "socialism".

Like this:
Not according to your other posts. According to your other posts they have made problems for themselves by having foolish immigration policies, and accepting too many "multicultural" (read: not white and Christian) refugees from war zones.
I have read that from you, on this forum - praise for China's adoption of free markets, etc. You are currently by default comparing China's immigration policies, favorably, with those of "socialist" Sweden and Germany.

Is China "socialist", in your world? Is their immigration policy better than Germany's?

Japan's is, you claim. How about Japan - are they "socialist" ?
Japan has stricter gun control laws than Germany, and more intrusive police. So is Japan more or less socialist than Germany?

Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
11. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Overall, they're probably about the same. Japan has stricter gun laws. However, you can open a 7 seater bar in Japan out of the back of your house, up a flight of crickedy stairs and serve food. In many ways, Japan has a much much freer market compared to the West. Much of Asia does. Which is why Asia will rise, while we in the West will fall.

But, yes, Japan is in many ways, your Utopian progressive 'socialistic' paradise. Lot's of free markets where you'd probably think they should be, heavy regulation where you'd probably think there should be. Sure, medicine is massively regulated. If you, as a doctor, try to figure out a little scam to make more money off the public healthcare system - say you find that you can make a good profit if you call for more $120 exams than are necessary. Next year, the Government will cut the legal price to$50 and make you eat it. As a punishment to all doctors - that way your name can be dragged through the mud as everyone takes the loss. Works well in a homogenous society.

Asians are relatively good at math. They're not magical. No one can look into the mind of another and see subjective experiences. Which is why we need sound money.

Go to Japan. Try to live poor. You'll find life is very tough. People work all day, every day. That's the price required to maintain their social paradise.

I think there's a better option: sound money, laws that protect property and uphold contract and free trade.

As an example, I believe the market would/will eventually derive a new form of money. One that allows everyone to see everything everyone else has purchased. And more. Then other companies will data mine this for summaries that can be used in conjunction with other forms of social data to better allocate resources. But, we can't have that money - because politicians get elected in the West by promising free-shit and now we're stuck with 5 decades of misallocation and no one, not even Trump and his B.S. pandering, is going to change that. The only solution now is a deep depression. Which is why we won't get a solution. Nope, a long rot instead.

12. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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Regulation is not socialism. Regulation is just government.
Again, nothing to do with socialism. Gun laws are almost universal - in Japan they go back to the shogunates, not socialism.
Americans work more hours than the Japanese do - have for a long time.

13. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Regulating who you can marry IS socialism.
Regulating what you can eat IS socialism.
Regulating who you can trade with IS socialism.

Yes, much of what Government does now is socialism. In the past it was LIMITED primarily peacekeeping and upholding legal arbitration. Of course, back then, this was America. We're not Citizens of the USA - which is, for the most part, a military industry.

14. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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No, it isn't. Not even close. Not even on the same axis of the Political Compass.

This is the damage the Frank Luntzs of the world do, the Fox Newses, the Breitbarts and Heritage Foundations and the whole shebang. When your thinking has been corrupted at that level, when you no longer have a basic vocabulary to express even the simplest thoughts, you become vulnerable to just about anything the powerful want to do.

Look at what the US corporate powers have set up there: they've got a large fraction of the American public, the Michael's of the country, motivated to get rid of socialized medical insurance because they have been harmed by the cultural impact of imported cheap labor.

Is that beautiful or what?

15. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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LOL

You do love your conspiracy theories. Which is why Swedenstan is such a beautiful example of 'democratic' socialism - they ran out of people to tax. But, instead of going the way of Japan, they decided to paper it over with people. People it over. This is how Progressive 'Democratic' Socialism played out in Sweden. In Venezuela, they ended up eating their zoo animals. In the USA? Well, here in Murder Inc. we have never ending war where Citizens volunteer to defend the free-roads by murdering women and children in oil rich nations of the ME.

You don't want 'socialism' iceaura. What you want is free-shit. Sorry, not happening.

In Japan, it costs 8500 a year for a family to have medical coverage. This doesn't cover 'everything'. Not 'everything' is free. Dental for example - costs extra. Now, this is in Japan. A relatively homogeneous hardworking society of relatively high IQ people who generally don't lie, sue or try to screw the system. Some do, and when they're caught, some do the right thing and commit suicide to save face. Which is, and has been, Japanese culture for millennia - something any ole cultural relativist would approve of. Not only this, but many practices are father to son. For generations. Sound good to you?

I did tell you of the person who couldn't afford medical care and asked to be suicided? He and his wife were barely getting by on the Japanese version of welfare - maybe 150 dollars a week? I could get the exact numbers (maybe, it would be rude to ask). When his medical bills *GAAASP* yes, BILLS - came due, he couldn't afford them, so he was given the option to die, which fell onto the shoulder of his daughter because his loser son was to much of a pansy. A lethal dose of anesthetic later, and he died in hospital.

Welcome to free-medical care.

How's this sound? You're in hospital, you cost a lot of money, you're going to live/linger on for maybe another decade - your family pulls the plug. Sound good to you?

The more I think about the obese USA, the more I am sure the cost is going to be quadruple. How does 30K a year per family sound to you? You know, for FREE healthcare.

Now, if you really want to get a good measure of the different outcomes between Japan and the USA. Go to a public toilet near a welfare ghetto in the USA. Run down shit smeared ghetto toilet. Then, go to a public toilet near a Japanese city-run welfare housing project. You could literally eat off the gawd damn floors they are that clean. That run down shit-hole of a toilet? THAT is an American public hospital with free healthcare. A place no one, certainly the not the public, would give two shits about.

It should be noted, ANY American can go to the ER and they will be treated. That's not what YOU want though. You want free-shit. You want someone else to pay for your stuff.

Until we have a technological revolution that replaces humans, this isn't happening.

AND you have only yourselves to thank. You Progressives ruined healthcare in the USA. You gave us our fiat currency, our central bank, the never ending regulations and the State mandated medical schools - all of which artificially created a short supply of healthcare. Now we have a bunch of Baby's trying to do what they do best, pass their bills onto their kids, grandkids and great grandkids. Except, there's not enough to pay and there's not enough medical goods and services to go around. My suggestion to you, vote to tax the SlumLords in your own generation Baby. They have all the shit. Take it. Oh, I mean 'tax it'. LOL

The dinner bell is ringing at the Zoo, and it'll only get worse from here on out.

Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
16. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Oh, and as for the cultural impact / cultural enrichment - Swedenstan now has no go zones. Swedenstan is running out of housing. Swedenstan is going to be cutting their social services. Swedenstans' standard of education - is about to go south. Swedenstan is privatizing their public swimming pools to keep out the unwanted. THAT is how socialists deal with the poor.

In short, Sweden got their wish, they'll soon be just like us, and for many of the same reasons.

17. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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You being played for a fool is not a conspiracy theory.
Japan spends less than half what the US spends on medical care, per capita. http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Briefing-Note-JAPAN-2014.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
There is no shortage of medical care capability and supply, in the US. No such thing was ever created - artificially or any other way.
Not for early stage heart disease. Or third month pregnancy checkups.

That's not medical care, you idiot. That's emergency treatment. That's the most expensive and least effective way to deliver medical care there is. That's the problem with this stupid setup: people endure medical problems until they are in crisis, and then check into the emergency room - this costs a fortune, and delivers substandard care. One of the most important benefits of Obamacare has been a sharp reduction in this trend.
They had a good run. We should imitate them - maybe we'll get 150 years of their success and then fall back to where they are now. That would be a serious improvement from what we are now.
How would know? You don't know what socialism is.
But you are correct: I want free market resource allocation wherever a market can be set up, not socialism in general. So?

Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
18. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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OMG - back to this.

Japan spends less on education too - guess what? ALL of their high-school graduates can read and write, in 4 alphabets. Japan also has welfare estates, they're nothing like the ghettos we have. Japanese do NOT use as much healthcare when they go to the doctor. You DO understand Americans are avid consumers of healthcare???

We are not Japan.
They are not us.

What works for them - is never going to work in the USA. Ever. Never.

The ONLY way we will have affordable high quality healthcare is first by ending the Federal Reserve. Followed by eradicating the AMA's monopoly on healthcare qualification, ending the millions of regulations and collapsing the rent-seeking. Free markets are the only way to fix this mess. There is no other solution. You don't seem to get it.

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LOL

20. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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What the US is doing does not work for the US, or anybody else. Why not try something that works for somebody else?
Ending central banking has never worked for anyone. Socializing the central bank has worked for dozens of different countries, including the 30+ that have better and cheaper health care than the US has.
Free market health care delivery has never worked for anyone, ever. Basic economic theory says it can't work, because the necessary conditions for a market are impossible to establish. You tell me it will work, but you are wrong about every other historical event and assertion of political fact you post, as far as I can check them. You base your claims on errors of fact, and little anonymous stories nobody can check.

Meanwhile, many other countries have better working systems than the US, that work much as things in general work in the US, and have features in common that the US system (which does not work) does not have. You tell me the US should not adopt them, even with adjustments, because they are different countries with different people than the US has. But they are also different from each other, just as much, and nevertheless these common features of health care delivery work for them all. In addition, what they do agrees with basic economic theory.

So why is the US the only country, uniquely in the whole world, to which basic economic theory does not apply, and that what these working systems have in common will not work for?

21. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Yes, I agree. We need to do what worked for us. What made this nation the richest in the history of the world. And by 'nation' I mean Nation. The first step will be to end the Federal Reserve. Then we eliminate the regulatory agencies and strengthen private property rights.

How about this? How about we move towards a more moral society? One where we don't reach for the gun and belt to solve each and every problem. One where the 'solution' cannot involve the initiation of violence against morally innocent humans who happen to be Citizens of Murder Inc?

Let me give you an example, because examples better illustrate these abstractions. Medicine. You would like cheap high quality medicine. Okay, there are hundreds of thousands of students who apply to medical schools and are rejected simply because there are not enough placements. In a free market, this massive demand would be met by opening up more schools. However, thanks to the AMA, this is not possible. Further, there are thousands of regulations that purposely prevent medical technologies from even being offered. Legally restricting fMRI access for example. It's now impossible to invent a drug unless you are a massive pharmaceutical company. About 2.5 billion! Come on! It does NOT cost that much to invent new drugs. This is an effect of massive over regulation. To the point where cancer patients about to die, are refused experimental treatments. Who owns THEIR body? Them? Or the Nation State? What do you think happens to a service when there's a legal monopoly? The quality goes down, the price goes up. Which is why the AMA has a legal monopoly. We see this in the fact that medical errors now rank #2 (#1 if you don't smoke) for why you will leave this earth.

Free markets / free people trading with one another in an agreed upon medium of exchange within an agreed upon legal framework. This is what makes society wealthy.

You keep suggesting you support free-markets, but you seem to magically 'just know' healthcare cannot be offered in the free market in the USA? How the hell CAN you know this information? You can't. It's impossible to know. No one knows what is or is not possible in the future. Not to mention, we haven't had a free market in medicine for over a century and even less so since the 1950s.

22. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Except we didn't have a central bank for much of our early history and we did just fine.

Anyway, so long as you are not forcing people to access your currency, and not selling T-Bonds in their or their children's name - go ahead an centralize a bank. Just let others ignore your currency. Which fine right? Because it's not going to work for them right? So they'll come crawling back to fiat central banking. According to you.

Oh, but the State knows its currency is shit - and it can only get by, and politicians get elected, by promising free-shit (See: B.Sanders). Which requires selling bonds on the unborn. Who someday, are going to elect a demagogue and take all that shit right back. You taught them, to get something done, you have to take it from someone else - that's fair. That's the lesson The Baby's taught their kids and grandkids. When times get tough, they'll elect a demagogue to get stuff done. Particularly if Trump actually makes a positive change. Socialism always leads towards Dictatorships.

Speaking of which, I see Trump is threatening to withhold 680 billion in federal funding if sanctuary cities do not comply with his wishes. Which, according to you, is The Will Of The People and therefor this is legal, and apparently 'moral'. Something you can ponder as our society get's used to be ruled by a Progressive Strongman of the Left.

23. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Total bullshit.

Appealing to 'Basic Economic Theory' is not a strong argument by the way.
Appealing to 'History' is not a strong argument by the way.

And you are wrong, the USA had perfectly fine free-market medicine in the late 1800s. Medicine itself, is derived FROM the free-market. From ancient Greek and Romans to the Chinese. Free people have been developing medical technology for the masses for as long as there have been people.

It should be noted, YOUR arguments were used to justify Slavery too. And you know what happened? It probably set humanity back 2000 years. Had the Romans given up on Slavery, humans would probably live on Mars today. Not to mention here in America. But nope, 'Basic Economic Theory' and all of human History demonstrated that we needed humans as slaves. Or we'd all die of starvation shitting on ourselves.