Immigration Crisis or an Economic Opportunity?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    LOL

    Your example of socialism was a volunteer fire-department. Give me a break. Talk about weaseling. That's not the socialism you want. You want a Nation State so that you can have a Government with a Central Bank to sell T-Bonds on the future labor of the unborn. You want the State's militant arm to shoot Citizens in the head if they don't 'Pay their fair share' and resist their confinement in a cage.

    AKA: Your socialism, is where others pay for your free shit.


    We're in this mess right now, because of Progressive 'Democratic' Socialism. And if you go back to the late 1800s and early 1900s you'll hear all about the free-shit GiverMint is going to provide the poor. Oh, and it was only the 'rich' that would pay the tax. What happened? The rich paid shit all, the poor starved to death in a Central Bank caused Great Depression and then go to fight and die for 'freeeedom' (what a joke) in WWII.

    Anyway, we have our poster child:
    Swedenstan!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Sadly, the lesson learned. It won't be not to engage in State Authoritarianism. Nope. My guess is. We'll see the rise of Nationalism and Fascism. More State Authoritarianism. And guess what? They'll justify their violence with arguments like 'This is Basic Econ 101' and 'History shows....'.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    Or a professional government fire department. It's an example of socialism - you asked for one, remember? You seemed confused about the concept.
    That's not socialism. That's government in an industrial society - any industrial society, socialist or capitalist or feudalist or anything.
    No, you won't. You won't find anything like that in the late 1800s and the early 1900s in the US.
    And you and your Ayn Rand ignorance will be partly to blame. How can we ever thank you?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    "Professional" by who's standards? Without a free-market, no one knows what the standard should be. Imagine "professional" firemen who cannot carry a hose, or don't know how to put out a fire. THAT is the 'standard' you'll end up with when Government monopoly takes over. Which is why we have hundreds of thousands of medical doctors who cannot find a liver on a chest X-ray, cannot differentiate between mM and uM, and don't even know what PMS stands for. But they're a 'Professional' MD, so it's all good - just ask GiverMint.

    Worse still, not only does quality suck, efficiency drop, but in your socialistic utopia, how does the 'Professional' fire department get paid? Is it voluntary? Does it involve another 'professional' Governmental agency creating money by fiat, and another 'professional' agency creating tax laws, and another 'professional' Governmental agency enforcing those laws, and another 'professional' agency incarcerating those who don't pay 'their fair share' and other 'professional' agencies creating propaganda to ensure Citizens of the Nation State are fed the right information, and other 'professional' agencies 'educating' the Citizen for 12 years so that, upon 'professional' certification by the Government with a certificate of 'high' schooling the graduate may lack the ability to read and write, but knows to love their Nation State - or at least, would never think to question the system they're fully immersed in.

    Political socialism is a nice way of saying Political violence.

    What you want is to live in a society, not based on voluntarily engaging with other around you, but in a society where the threat of violence is used coerce others into giving you what you want / vote for. By analogy: You're never going to rape your way into a loving relationship and well rounded caring family. Never. That requires voluntarism. Or put another way, interacting with people in a manner both agree to. Saying 'this is good for society' or 'you use the roads' or 'we voted' - isn't going to change immoral actions into moral actions. What you'll have instead is a broken facsimile of family.

    Or, in this case, society - whatever that is.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    We are reaching the conclusion of over a 100 years of Progressive Socialism in the USA. Beginning with an Amendment to the US Constitution to make taxation of labor legal, and culminating in 20 trillion dollars worth of 'professional' Governmental bullshit. Every single market in the USA is captured by Government regulation - with Obama setting a new record this year alone, turning every "American" into a Citizen of Murder Inc; tax chattel to for their Farmers - their labor sold long ago as milk and meat.

    ALL of the free voluntary solutions that would have occurred - didn't.
    And now won't.

    The fact is, the US Government is the largest most powerful in human history. It incarcerates the most non-violent humans in history. It has nuked cities of civilians, started phony trillion dollar wars, murdered thousands in these liar wars. The US Government consumes the most of the planets limited energy reserves, and creates the most pollution. It spies (illegally) on all of It's Citizens. It sells trillions in debt obligations on the future productive labor of the unborn - something even the Greek Philosophers referred to is disgust.

    American Citizens cannot even buy and sell milk! THAT is the level or ownership the State exerts of it's pathetic herd of Government Schooled into compliance Tax Chattel.

    Your Progressive forefathers gave us this. You have only yourselves to thank. And for what? Some low quality free-shit. Free-shit that still drives you to this day (see: B.Sanders and his K-14 bullshit).


    Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The way forward is Dictator. I think, on the Left. But, it's just as likely to be from the Right.

    Baked.In.The.Cake.


    Oh, I'm sure Americans will sing praises to Big Brother right up to and including the end. Whether that is through another phony war or into an oven. Government is a cancer - it will grow, and grow and grown, until one way or another - it kills its host. Us.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Oh really?

    Tell me, how does your 'professional' fire department get paid?
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    They get paid. That's the standard.
    Labor has never been taxed in the US, at least not since 1865. And a Federal income tax on wages paid to laborers has always been legal in the US - no Amendment required. You were linked on that before - at least twice. Why don't you ever get your facts straight?
    The socialist ones? By taxation.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    LOL
    So you're standard is: If they can find a means of forcing morally innocent humans into paying them, then they meet the standard. Essentially, Mao meets your 'Standard'. Never mind 30 million humans starved to death. He meets the Standard because he was paid. Little wonder 1 in 5 (which increased again this year by the by) Government School graduates lack the ability to competantly read and write. Little wonder Medical Error is now the #2 reason you die. Little wonder the PIC houses the most morally innocent humans in all of history.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The Union was designed whereby the Federal Government was to play a LIMITED role in society. Mainly to delivering the mail, marshalling an army to defend the nation from attack, and upholding the law.

    So yes, I agree, Socialism is when you give one group of people, that group with a monopoly on violence (the Government), the ability to create market monopolies over other areas of society (ex: the Central Bank's fiat currency monopoly, Government Schools' educational monopoly, and etc....). With these monopolies obtained through violence, the Socialist State then leverages them to expand like the cancer it is, into newer areas of society (such as granting the AMA a near monopoly on medicine, forcing people to obtain phony licences through regulatory capture or morality laws, preventing private competition through regulatory capture and limited licencing scams, end etc...) Finally, Socialism has altered society to such a state of being, one where every aspect is utterly dependent on the initiation of State violence or coersion against morally innocent people to get pretty much anything done. The Socialist Utopia finally enters it's terminal phase whereby the Governmental Cancer eats the host from the inside out - appendages slowly rotting away. We can see this now in our Progressive Socialist Utopia we live in. It doesn't feel like a Utopia to you - I mean, you probably want some more free-shit. But, the same could be said for an Iranian living in their Utopian Theocracy or a North Korean livein in their Workers Paradise - to We The Little People, State Autoritarianism is the Religion, and pretending never really does match up and align well with reality.

    Thus, Socialistic Paradises often conclude with never ending wars and then defeat, or a civil war. I do hear Zibra is tasty

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    America is Dead
    Long Live The USA


    Anyway, we have Progressive Socialist Poster Child Sweden to watch - let's see how things work out for them. IMO, they're done for. Sweden's legacy won't be one of B.Sanders miracle magic people economy, no, it'll be one of running out of people to take stuff from and free shit to give away to get elected again. Sweden will be a lesson regarding the folly of State Authoritarianism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    No, you illiterate dingbat. The standard by which one identifies a "professional" firefighter is that they get paid to be a firefighter and fight fires.
    Now you can't tell Feudalism from Socialism. You have Pharoah's Egypt described as "socialist", Genghis Khan's China, West Virginia's coal mine Company Towns. Is there a bottom to this, a level of absurdity at which even your dementia is capable of recognizing nonsense and drawing a line?
    Too late, it already is - has been for decades now.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    LOL

    Maybe that's your standard.

    Re: Socialism

    I already told you what socialism was. It's a system of social organization (in our case, geopolitical legalities called Nation States) in which private ownership of property and the distribution of income (now fiat) are subject to social control through the Nation States Government. Government, as we have stated numerous times, is a group of humans with the legal right to INITIATE violence against morally innocent humans within said Nation State (in modern times).

    Thus, Socialism is inherently immoral.

    Our Constitution, the founding legal document of America, was specifically written to LIMIT Government. Government's role was NOT to provide alms to the poor, or provide free dental, or fly you to the moon on vacation - it was LIMITED to law enforcement, defending the boarders of our legal entity and delivering the mail. ALL of the rest of the shit you want - YOU have to provide for yourself or trading with others. So, accordingly, a voluntary fire department is NOT an example of socialism. It's an example of private charity. A private fire deparment OTOH, that is paid for, voluntarily, is called a business.

    Now, I do understand that due to the layers upon layers of normalization (particularly income taxation and fiat currency) you are having trouble picturing a world where we get by without pointing a gun at one another or selling trillions of dollars of debt obligations on the unborn. Well, lucky you, most people are in your boat. Thus, it's been war after war after phony war - for as long as there have been humans organized. Don't expect that to change any time in the near future. Also, you should expect us to end up 'electing' a Strongman - because, in the end, that's where Socialism ends. And in War. And in social collapse.

    Often, simultaneously.


    Sure, Sweden did so well that they are now f'cked.
    Bye Bye Sweden - nice knowing you

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    Note: Japan did really well for quite a dew decades. So did Venezuela - come to think of it. If you're in at the beginning (where you want to be) stealing from the next generation - sure, it probably 'works out well'. Free private market derived quality medical. Free private market derived education. But, if you're the one left holding the Socialist Bag of BullShit - not so much. Medicine that costs to much, is unavailable, or government schools where you're just as likely to graduate knowing less than when you started. Assuming you don't want to be raped (and, by definition you cannot) or you don't like the taste of zookeeper. Then not so good.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    Thats simply and flatly wrong. The word has a meaning, which you can find in a dictionary if you pick a good one, and that's not it. It's not even close - socialism involves community (social), not private (individual), ownership of property and the means of producing wealth, as its distinguishing and definitive feature.

    That's where capitalism ends as well (the US setup). And feudalism. And fascism. And communism. That's where all known civilizations have ended - so far.

    What's your point?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    No, it isn't - the community owns the gear, the firehouse, the trucks, the medical equipment, and so forth. The community pays for the training, often hiring a professional for that and for management, and sets the terms of service, benefits, etc. The community carries insurance on the firefighters and the performance of their duties.

    It's community owned and community run. Socialist.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The IRS, the FDA, the library, Government Schools, US Military Bases in Germany, the CIA, NSA, FBI, the DoED, the TSA, and etc... ALL of these 'services' and their associated properties are provided for through Socialism.

    They are examples of Socialism.

    As for your example of a voluntary fire department - this is an example of charity on the part of the people voluntarily and Socialism where the building is owned by the Government.

    I have no problem with a 'community' voluntarily buying and owning thing - ever hear of stocks? Or memberships? What makes "Socialism" different, is it is a form of State Authoritarianism. It's inherently immoral.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    No, they aren't. The only examples of socialism in action
    on that list are the libraries and the schools - neither one of them Federal or nation-State owned.

    Volunteer fire departments are paid for - the gear, training, supervision, insurance, buildings, etc - by taxation.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    If the 'taxation' is voluntary, fine. But if you're using the threat of violence - then it's immoral. You don't get to say, well we voted, or you were born here, or the Gods said so, or you're black so it's okay, etc... There is NO excuse.

    The 'American' experiment was designed with the idea of limiting the immorality to law enforcement, defense of the nation and delivering the mail.

    We're waaay past that America. As a matter of fact, we're not even living in America. We're Citizens of an entity called the USA. It controls almost every aspect of our lives. Sell raw milk? Sure, that's only been done for millennia, oh, wait - sorry, the magic left right lever was pulled (no one knows which way, or could care) so that's now illegal. Sell raw milk (your property) to someone else in an agreed upon money (medium of exchange) that's not going to harm them (contract agreement) and is moral. Creating an agency, funding it through trillions of dollars of T-Bond obligations, creating a militant enforcement agency, creating a spy network, creating a prison industry, and threatening to shoot the people selling raw milk. That is F*cking insane. INSANE. Claiming it's to help people - is insane. People are not baby's they can make their own risk assessments and if they were sold spoilt milk, they could sue for contract violation. Only the religious, in this case Statism, have the ability to look you straight in the face and barf up rationals for this level of insanity (all of which are predicated on so many layers of abstractions (like Nation Statehood, Social Good, Socialism, Citizen Duty) and believe their own bullshit.

    Thank you GiverMint Schools - ruining childrens' minds, one Citizen at a time.

    For me, there's no difference between using violence to provide a service to put out fires, because I use the roads, and chopping off a gay mans' head in KSA because he used the roads. THAT IS INSANE. You understand that?

    You often like to say, Sweden had a good run. As if this somehow makes an argument. In my ears it's like says, sure Slavery was f*cking evil and we're going to deal with the fallout forever, but hey, we had a good run there for awhile. Got some wheat and cotton picked. I mean, you don't seem to get, we're LESS forward. Not a good run. Not at all. A shit run actually. Sweden had a shit run.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    So your previous posts about Sweden's 150 years of increasing prosperity and freedom, gained by their adoption of capitalism and markets, are no longer - operable - or something?
    You're actually crazier than that even - you used "violence" when you meant "taxation".
    The question was whether or not it was socialist. You were confused, and I straightened you out. It is. The local voluntary fire department in your US town is a socialist entity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2016
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    No, I meant exactly what I stated.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    You qualified your example with the word voluntary. Two totally different beasts.

    To give you an idea, the subjective experience between charity and theft, is if the exchange was volentary. Love and rape are delineated by subjective experence. One is volentary, the other is not volentary.


    Normalization doesn't change these facts. A North Korean would probably think me crazy for suggesting I should own my own house. To him, that's a "function of government".
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,850
    All fire departments in the US, that I know of, are socialist. That came about after long and well documented experience with capitalist ones - it turns out to be impossible to set up a market.

    The local ones with mostly volunteer firefighters just seemed like a better example for you - simple, familiar, easily understood.
    Like I said, even crazier than the actual post. You think taxation, regardless of its provenance or government, is violence.
    Likewise the difference between taxation and violence - if the exchange is voluntary, that is if the person is not imprisoned or otherwise forced to abide in the community, and has the same voice in the government as everyone else.
     

Share This Page