In a democracy, do we deserve the leaders we elect?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by gamelord, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    673
    First off, who is "we"? As I have little in common with the random strangers around me and even little political agreement with my own friends. Who is this we stuff?

    Let us examine the myth of American democracy and the dangers of the First-past-the-post system, let us finally educate this gigantic mass of sheeple and enlighten them on the mediocre and brainwashed nature of their existence.
     
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  3. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    That seems like two separate issues.
     
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  5. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Nope it is all one big thing.
     
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  7. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    How are the pros and cons of the first-past-the-post system related to whether or not you're smarter than all of the sheeple? If you could point to a better system, you might have a case.
     
  8. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Personally the first step is upgrading the human brain to be simply better people instead of sheeple.

    This guy has an idea, its not perfect but still an upgrade to first-past-the-post.


    Give me a while and I can think of a better system than even this actually. In the meantime, the alternative vote system will do.
     
  9. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    That ain't gonna happen, so we might as well move on to step two. And you still haven't explained what that has to do with a voting dystem.
     
  10. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    The only reason it wont happen is because naysayers like you keep saying it wont.

    Second who do you think are the brains who thought first-past-the-post was a good idea in the first place. Greedy people who wanted to enslave humanity and the stupid sheeple who are too dumb to do anything about it. Both need an upgrade to their brains.
     
  11. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Better check your history instead of just making stuff up. First-past-the-post is the simplest method. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with greed or slavery or stupidity. And it works about as well as the so-called improvements. If you have a better plan, feel free to enlighten those of us who aren't as smart as you.
     
  12. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    You said "sheeple", without irony. Nothing else you say can be taken seriously.
     
  13. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Simple is not always better.

    And no it does not work as well as the improvements.

    Also, new methods have to come to me, do you know Einstein took 10 years to formulate his theories? Can't just demand it and rush it.

    Also if you really trust aristocracy you are naive. It's all about money, land ownership, and control.

    You just posted a common fallacy, so I'm supposed to take what you said seriously, why exactly?

    And yes the American public is very much aptly described as such.
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Demonstrate that.

    But you can't claim you have better methods until you have them. You might work at it for ten years or a hundred years and still come up with nothing better. That's the history of some democracies.
     
  15. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Isn't Trump evidence enough?

    I already stated there is a better method. And I said it is the alternative vote.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Trump seems to represent your thinking. Every dopey thought that crosses his "mind" gets blurted out.

    I didn't ask you to state it. I asked you to demonstrate it.
     
  17. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    Upgrading the masses is too demanding in the short term, so rather than concentrating on the electorate, instead find a better distillation process for the selection of the office holders.

    If the human solution still proves to be lacking, there’s always the synthetic alternatives.



    Alexa 2020
     
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    There is nothing new here. No one (other than in this video) calls it "first past the post" but maybe that is a common phase in the UK. There are many systems and that, in Political Science, is what is studied in Comparative Politics (systems of various countries compared to each other).

    It's rarely the system that makes the difference. It's how a system is implemented. The problem with the system in the U.S. is predominately the extent to which "big money" is allowed to influence things.

    Our system is pretty representative but it's representative of the lobbyists and not of the people. Take the money and the incentives that go along with that out of the system and it will be more representative of the people.

    Trump is an anomaly. The biggest breakdown in our system under Trump isn't that Trump got elected (he was the candidate of the "frustrated"). If the system was working correctly, he should have been rendered largely ineffective by Congress, by the laws, and by the Supreme Court.

    The Republicans in Congress have largely showed themselves to be cowards. The mid-term elections could change all that or the "frustrated" could still have their way for another election or two.
     
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  19. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Make me Trump, and then I will.
     
  20. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Dunno, you just made me realize over 83% of America is religious, so I've just kind of decided just handing power to the majority is kind of a bad idea.
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It's actually a great topic and worthy of serious consideration .IMO.
    Democracy, to me, only functions properly when all members of the community actively participate in the election process.
    Societal membership should come with a cost. MUST vote, MUST pay taxes, MUST have collective health as a priority.
    and that's the rub, the down side for those who have personal vested interests that are more important that the health of the collective.

    Why do you feel a religious person has less right to his vote than say an atheist?

    Perhaps democracy means that the outcome is always the one the collective vote decides it to be....(whether you like it or not)
    As to getting what you deserve... hmmm... that's another issue. One that is often determined by voter complacency and lack of interest of democratic outcomes.

    When you only have about 40% voting (midterms) you can expect poor leadership...
     
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  22. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Gamelord, the U.S. system is certainly messy and some say "but there is no better system". Whether that's true or not, it can work fairly well. Not all parts of the country are the same.

    I live in Seattle, Trump has little effect on local life. Government works here about as well (locally) as it can. Seattle is liberal but most of the rest of the state is moderate (conservative). There are churches in Seattle but most people aren't particularly religious and the ones who are aren't of the variety that you see in much of the rest of the country. Much of the West (conservative or liberal) isn't nearly as religious as the rest of the country.

    Everyone isn't wealthy here either but compared to the country as a whole, the system is working well enough here.

    Other than big money in politics the other issue effecting the country is that it's not a very homogenized country. Diversity is good, change is good, but in politics too much economic and educational variety in one district isn't likely to be good as the interests of the people are too different.

    It's better for a poor distinct to be poor (except as it affects the school districts) in some ways in that their representative will be representing poor interests. Gerrymandering causes those interests to be underrepresented when you have wealthier and poorer citizens in one district.

    Regarding your comments regarding liberals. I'm not sure why you are so down on liberals as they would tend to reflect many of your view of society (as well as any group is going to reflect your views)? Liberals do tend to forget where money is coming from sometimes and will attempting to represent the poor can end up overtaxing the poor.

    The electric rates in Seattle went up a lot several years ago and they just OK'd another rate increase along with the continually increasing property taxes. No group is perfect and both parties benefit from being out of power from time to time but overall I don't get your knock on liberals unless it's totally based on your not getting laid.
     
  23. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't really matter, the majority are going to get the government they want one way or another.
     

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