In light of the FBI's having examined whether Trump is a Russian asset, do you think he is?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Xelor, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I know

    Have seen lots of ladies cleavages I would love to cleave to

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  3. candy Valued Senior Member

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    I can not see DJT as a reliable asset. He is too unpredictable for any handler to depend on him.
    Does Putin have potentially comprising information? That is a different matter.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That he is so obviously vulnerable to blackmail.
    A great many people think he is being blackmailed - that's a witting agent.
    Nobody would turn down a chance to get influence on the US Presidency - no matter how unreliable.

    And people make mistakes, get surprised, get lucky: Putin is not a Hollywood supervillain - his influence operations seem to have had Trump roped in years ago, long before there was a realistic chance of Trump being President, just for the money laundering and connections.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Trump has no ideology of that - or any coherent - kind. Trump is only semi-literate.
    Whether Putin's ideology is "multipolar" or not is a matter of definition. He would have no objection to a unipolar world in which Russia was the pole.

    Trump admires Putin because Putin is a big shot mob boss, rich and powerful and violent. Putin does not admire Trump - there's just no way.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    [#PutiTrump | #WhatTheyVotedFor]

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    He thinks he's not: Click for the ship of state.

    Donald Trump appears to be one of the most anxiously willing assets we might imagine.

    Here's the thing about whatever Putin might have on Trump, or whatever else might be the reason why: There is a suggestion we might suss out of Melania's tears that Donald wasn't expected to win. In that case, his Putinesque participation is fulfilled.

    The common aspect between the Republican Party and Vladimir Putin is that they both hate the good thing that the U.S. is supposed to be. Every time Donald Trump diminishes American prestige, efficacy, or presence in the world, he is doing Putin's business; every time Trump and his administration and the Republican Party demonstrate their thesis about dysfunctional government, they are raising and rewarding Putin's hopes.

    Russian efforts innovated scale and focus; the people they exploited would not necessarily notice the sometimes unsubtle differences between American English and whatever was writing these obscure news sites and social media posts. There was actually an article, recently, in which NBC News got so slipshod as to make a point of Trump supporters when apparently the only one they could find was a rather quite obviously poseur Twitter façade that disappeared almost immediately after being cited.

    I think of a friend, and years ago we had this weird discussion in which I asked him why he did something he knew was full of shite, and he said he was just throwing bones to certain other people's unceasing appetites, which in its moment almost made sense; it was the sort of thing you wouldn't necessarily notice unless, say, he behaved in a strangely similar way for years. Which, of course, he has. If anyone calls out his behavior, he pretends ignorance, or else actually suffers some genuine psychological disruption by which he cannot remember, in some cases, what he just said. There comes a point at which, pathological or otherwise, engaging the behavior at all is futile. The most he can manage in his growing presentation of paranoia—(a more vernacular definition and application)—and reaction is a sketch of talking points for a façade; when pushed to deeper discourse, he reverts to predictable talking points, but here's the thing; they're mundane talking points when reflecting the façade, and equally mundane when confessing the hidden. The behavior itself is notable; the energy expenditure for pretense of maintaining a façade that does not withstand scrutiny is extraordinary and disruptive, itself suggestive of dysfunction. To the one, though he's not American born and raised, and thus not steeped in our culture, the difference is not necessarily so great: This is the sort of behavior Americans required in large quantity in order to bear witness unto a Trump presidency and Republican Congress; while neurotically embedded duplicity is hardly exclusively or even originally an American phenomenon, there are particular ways and styles about it that seem rather quite American, and it's likely he learned some of how he's behaving from our conservatives.

    We might similarly consider Sciforums; various characters have played versions of it here, at Sciforums, over the years. They try to present themselves as liberalistic or progressive, but would appease inequality; given enough repetition, people get sick of the whole pretense that by one's political identity it becomes a duty to forfeit and then ruin that politic. Sure, there are people who will fall for it, but we ought not have any question about the intentions of those who propagate, perpetuate, or abet such grift.

    In the narrative of Russian state disruption of the American election, no front of the effort that tread into Macedonia and Britain, at least, needed invent the stupidity and ego defense exploited by content farms, automated socmed, or expensive market research; all Putin, as such, need do is exploit a extant, even vibrant, American marketplace. To the one, it was well executed; to the other, that's a lower standard than it ought to be in no small part thanks to decades of deliberately diminishing American capability in support of our industrial and commercial delusions, i.e., capitalism.

    One of the observable truths of American politics in recent decades is that if we empower the American right wing, the nation and its capabilities suffer. All anyone needs do in order to diminish American prestige and efficacy is elect the cohort known for arguing that government just doesn't work. Give them a chance to govern, and they do, indeed, labor to prove their thesis.

    And, honestly, if you're Putin, and looking to screw with American prestige and efficacy, is there any more tempting basket of easy marks than American conservatives? At this point, Donald Trump need only be himself to fulfill Puti-Toots' fancy; as the GOP makes clear, the President has plenty of domestic help.
     
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  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't need to be coherent or even articulated but it can seriously influence the behavior of someone who is impulsive, instinct focused and other wise ignorant of what it is all about.
    According to his earlier writings he does appear to have a thought out ideology abet incompetent and incomplete, but he does have one. ( the destruction of OPEC for example)
    Then one looks at his first acts as president, what he attempted to do and what he did actually do etc and the profile of someone acting with a background ideology is evident.

    The question though that is puzzling me is that if Trump actually agrees with Putin's ideology of a multi polar world and takes steps to achieve this, (withdrawal from human rights commissions, UN leadership, international trade and military treaties etc) then can he be considered as an actual asset of Putin's or simply someone who happens to agree with him?

    Remember we are dealing with a novice president, who is essentially a loose cog in a big wheel, that acts often impulsively and with little regard to the mistakes he may or may not be making. A person who has been acting with high degrees of paranoia, who believes in conspiracy theories and is looking for lizards ( lizard people) under his bed.
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Something that the USA has proven very good at. Trading principle for benefit. Other wise "making a pact with the devil". Where principles are for sale and can be compromised to maintain the esteem of a potential yet less principled ally..
    The very essence of corruption. Perhaps. A glorified whorehouse where prostitution of principle is the name of the game.
    Ie.
    Saudi Arabia - oil and weapons. - human rights etc
    Pakistan
    and yes even Russia....
    China - where human rights do not exist.

    The cost of such trading in "principle for benefit" can be enormous...
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It is not just USA weapons being used to generate the misery in Yemen but also USA money. Money used to buy Saudi oil. Huge money paid out over 60 odd years to a nation that demonstrates utter disdain for human rights or egalitarianism.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. He never wrote anything except some of his tweets. He has no "earlier writings".
    (Hating OPEC is a bumper sticker in the US, an obsession of the Trump voting crowd. There's no more ideology involved in that than in questioning Obama's birth certificate - and there's no actual destruction of OPEC involved.)
    Not to me. He's a con on a power trip - he wasn't attempting to do anything except keep it going, and that explains everything he did outside of Putin's bidding.
    Agree with him about what? That Russia should expand its influence and territory, Russian oligarchs should be able to stash their stolen wealth all over the planet (but especially in the US ) in peace, and the US should get out of the way? That's not an ideology - that's a Godfather using his leverage.
    Treaties and UNs and international trade and so forth are basic building blocks of multipolarity.
     
  13. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    Red:
    I probably am not a person who can answer your question as it should be because I think Trump is witless, period.
     
  14. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    Touché
     
  15. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    I have a puppy that I sometimes think of as witless. But then I do realize that he has his own set of priorities and understandings .

    We should not underestimate our opponent. This may also lead his supporters to conclude that we do not value them.

    More lack of decency than wit with Signor Trump,I would say,though reasoned analysis is mostly lacking and only applied when his own interests coincide.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Correctly evaluating Trump's intellectual or ideological capabilities is not an "underestimation", in itself. He has other capabilities.

    In particular, it's necessary in any investigation into Trump's Russian collusions. There is no ideological or intellectual component: follow the money, follow the threats, follow the power, don't waste time following ideas.

    There is no way to appease his supporters and oppose Republican governance both. Worrying about what a Trump voter will "think" is a waste of time - they have a choice: decent American or Republican voter. It's their choice, and no one can make it for them.
     
  17. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    Very risky. Some at least of his supporters must be convinced that there is a better way if America is not to stumble into 6 more years of this.

    I had assumed that his supporters would have seen the error of their initial judgment but this is not apparent yet.

    I wonder if the new crop of young voters offer any hope the next time around.
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    They have to "become convinced" on their own. No one can do it for them.
    They re-elected Reagan. They re-elected W&Cheney, in 2004. They voted for the Republican Senate and House. Why would anyone expect them to see the error of their ways?

    And we don't need them, to prevent America from "stumbling" - they are about a third of the electorate, and that can be beaten at the polls. They can be beaten far more easily than they can be persuaded of the error of their ways.

    One way to beat them might be to bringTrump to bay in public, via indictment or impeachment or both. There is even a chance of removal.

    Another might be to belabor the Trump administration with legal prosecutions - a third or more of his Cabinet and family seems to have committed felony crimes recently. That might have the side benefit of exposing and isolating Trump's domestic as well as foreign criminal behavior, weakening his electoral support.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  19. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    Red:
    If Trumpkins have any doubt regarding whether I value them, let me disabuse them of their uncertainty: I think them worthless wastes of skin. I find dimestore goldfish more useful. At least they are fitting food for bigger fish.
     
  20. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    Are there other classes of humanity that you are happy to write off in their entirety?

    Or are you going to say that was a hyperbole and said in frustration?
     
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  21. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    Red --> No.
    • Trumpkins status as members of humanity is, frankly and AFAIC, just a technicality.

    Blue --> No.
     
  22. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    I will just put it down to your sense of humour.

    I certainly would not like to suggest that the characteristics of bloody mindedness, selfishness ,misplaced admiration (according to Cohen surprisingly) or poor reasoning ability etc etc are enough to qualify any large group as "separate from humanity."


    They may be a burden on our collective value but that is not the same .

    If you are going to insist that your description is to be taken without a grain of salt then I will leave you to your delusion .

    (I repeat that it is foolhardy to write off a third of the USA's electorate to the tender mercies of whoever might come after Trump-although I note as an aside that Cohen suggested that Trump would perhaps not relinquish office willingly if he lost the 2020 elections)
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Not as foolhardy as attempting to appease them, or appeal to them, via dissembling and coddling and compromising and persuading and negotiating in good faith.

    They are adults. They have dug themselves in. They have to dig themselves out. Nobody can do it for them.
     

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