In regards to atheism.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by garbonzo, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. The atheist does not know God, in any sense of the word (only as a character in a story) therefore any form of belief in an idea or concept of God, is nothing but a conjuring in the mind. For such a person God does NOT exist. Plus it matters not whether the person professes to believe in God or not.

    jan.
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Either God exists or not, there is no existing for one person and not existing for another, otherwise you are admitting that God is merely an idea.
     
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  5. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    God is an idea for some, and in most cases is introduced as an idea.
    But for some God exists, and others, God doesn't exist. That's the reality.

    jan.
     
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  7. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    No it's not. Even though the phenomenon of believing in God feels real, that is different than God actually being real. Plenty of formerly religious people acknowledge that it felt real at the time, but know in hindsight that it must have been delusion.
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I don't think you responded fairly or accurately to Jan's post--although I hasten to add that I don't think it was on purpose.

    To say, "for some God exists and [for] others God doesn't exist," does not in any way touch on the question of whether God actually exists. It's just a statement of how people can feel so differently about the question.
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I think you are overestimating Jan.
     
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  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    I agree that it wasn't on purpose but I disagree that spidergoat was unfair or innaccurate.
    Jan (perhaps deliberately) refuses, consistently, to be specific - because that gives him room to back pedal if caught out.

    Um, no it's not. Jan also wrote:
    .
    Whereas this is in fact true for everyone.
    NO one knows "god" - only, as he said, "as a character in a story" or "a conjuring in the mind".
     
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  11. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Newton was raised and educated in a society that was rather rigidly Christian. His esoteric beliefs and practices nonwithstanding, he was a pretty pious theist belonging to the dominant religion of his time and place. The liberalisation of society and expansive freedom of thought and speech in the following century allowed atheists and the irreligious (including deists) to discuss and voice their ideas.

    Do you have any sort of a point, or just meaningless pontificating?
     
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What else could you conclude?
    If it is a fact that God does not exist, which is your position, then from your point of view, God does NOT exist.

    For people who believe that God exists, then for them He does.

    Neither side can convince the other of the rightfulness of their position. That is the reality of the situation.

    jan.
     
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It says that for some, God exists, and for some God doesn't.
    The actuality of God's existence has to be bound up in that fact.
    God, both exists, and does not exist, depending upon ones position.

    jan.
     
  14. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    I see that Jan's trolling and using the "I'm going to pretend I don't know what "fact" means" argument.
     
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  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    See I told you. Jan thinks there are (at least) two realities.
     
  16. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    To say, "for some God exists and [for] others God doesn't exist" appears to just be a confused way of writing that 'Some people believe in the existence of God and some don't'.

    The question that the atheism/theism controversy is addressing isn't whether or not some people believe in the existence of God. I think that virtually all atheists and theists agree that many people do have subjective belief in the existence of God.

    The dispute is about whether the supposed object of theistic belief has objective existence.

    Monotheists believe that God's existence is more fundamental than the existence of anything else. In fact, God is typically believed to be the creator/source of the rest of reality, including man.

    I don't see how that kind of belief in the ontological priority of God is consistent with the atheistic idea that God is a phantasm of the human imagination, a creation of man.

    Maybe that's Jan's point. (He/she is so cryptic that it's hard to know what the point is.) The concept of a God that one believes exists (even if it objectively doesn't) is very different from the concept of a God that one believes doesn't exist. The two ideas will play very different psychological roles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Well reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible. Maybe there are things which aren't observable to some, but to others. That would seem to be the case given that God (at least in it's basic form) has been believed in from the beginning of known history.

    Within your world view, which has a lot to do with how you perceive reality, you have decided that God does not exist. My world view holds that God does exist. Both views have basis in our perceived reality.

    On one level it makes no difference, it could merely be part of our individual journeys through this life.

    Maybe you've simply blotted God out altogether, as something that is unnecessary for your journey through this life.

    jan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Ask yourself why you have to rationalize it like that?
    I'll tell you. For you it is more likely that God does not exist. But you're not entirely closed to the idea of God.
    You want confirmation in a way that convinces you that God exists.
    But even if God was to show that He existed, you may well not see it because it doesn't match your expectation, which is routed to what it is you require to accept, or believe that God exists.

    People who believe in God, generally see little evidences within the fabric of their perception, which if God existed, by definition, that would be a way to comprehend the existence of God (by definition).

    It's all about your position on the matter.

    If God does exist, then you are within God, and God is within you. If you look outside of yourself for God, then you may develop a false conception of what God as you would be looking for something separate to yourself, or something which is unobservable by human sense perception.

    Well, what are the claims that are made about God?
    What is the most comprehnsive sources of information about God?
    Given God's definition, what would need to be observed in order to justify the idea that God exists.

    Ultimately, you have to bring in man's expression of belief in God, by ascribing titles, such as monotheism, judeo-christian, and others. It is as though you assume that without institutes like these there would be no idea of God. That is a false assumption.

    Why aren't you more concerned with where this concept of God originated? Apart from the giant conspiracy theories abound, ie, God was invented to explain thunder, or God was invented to control masses, ideas which cannot be verified, where is the study of this.

    The scriptures, whether you want to accept it or not, are very sophisticated, and very profound. And some of these scripture were written thousands of years ago. It is hardly likely that they evolved with man. But you're entitled to think they. So in this way you have already concluded that God does not exist.

    In my opinion. Belief or non belief in God, is a fundamental thing, not something we come to acquire. But over the course of our existence we can come to alter our beliefs through experiential knowledge, and informational knowledge (which be ultimately be strengthened by good intelligence and of course experience.

    A good question to ask ourselves is: What do we want this experience of life to be?

    jan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Monotheism is an aspect of agriculture, as is written language.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Monotheism is the belief in God, who is one without a second.

    jan.
     
  21. Secular Sanity Registered Senior Member

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    I think that Neil deGrasse Tyson said it best. Click.

    In regards to atheism. Oopsy, the cat’s out of the bag and a Texas public school was forced to apologize for putting a question about god on a critical thinking assignment. Too funny!

    "There’s a controversy currently brewing in Katy, Texas, because that question about God’s existence is being used as evidence for Christian persecution."

    The students are expected to distinguish factual claims from common place assertions and opinions and evaluate inferences from their logic in text, right? Well, her answer was wrong.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...d-not-force-the-class-to-admit-god-is-a-myth/


     
  22. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    So, Jan, you think that people can create Gods just by believing in them?

    Which then logically means that all religions are true - even the ones that you don't personally believe in.
     
  23. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I know, it arose along with our modern lifestyle, which emerged from hunter-gatherers, who, it is theorized, are largely polytheistic due to the nature of their environment.
     

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