Infinite Potential

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by Write4U, Mar 22, 2023.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And prior to the "becoming" is the Implicate order?
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2023
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    I wonder if the Implicate Order might be an alternative perspective of "Neoplatonism".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

    Note the inclusion of relational mathematics in the triune of the universe.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    It doesn't only apply to your morning breakfast but to your experience of reality itself.
    Without quantum (a fundamental unit of value), there can be no physical reality to begin with.

    In any case, I don't know if I posted this before, but it bears reading twice.
    It has a direct relationship to Bohm's Implicate Order.

    The Two Sides of Reality
    by Lee Bladon

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    more.....
    https://evolvingsouls.com/blog/two-sides-of-reality/
     
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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    “Quantum” is not a kind of stuff, that you spread on your toast like marmalade. A quantum means something. So does “quantum” as a qualifying adjective, as in “quantum chemistry”.

    “without quantum” is however meaningless gibberish.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    So far I see no conflict.
    Care to explain that "meaningless comment" about two words quoted out of context?

    Rethinking reality
    https://www.sciencenews.org/century/quantum-physics-theory-revolution-reality-uncertainty#

    And it isn't "gibberish".
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    Actually that is precisely what the word means.
    As to the mountainlake:
    Water potential
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Then you don't know what science is. Bohm was 10x the scientist you are. If you don't understand Bohm, it is you who is lacking in scientific proficiency.
    You may even enjoy reading "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".
    Chapters[edit]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholeness_and_the_Implicate_Order
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    "Without quantum" is gibberish.

    "Without a quantum" could make sense, in the right context. So could "without quantum physics" or "without quantum chemistry". But "without quantum (a fundamental unit of value)" is just meaningless.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    Correct, without values there is no mathematics. But the term "quantum" is well defined as;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

    Notice the terms "value" as an abstraction of a mathematical property. A quantum is a mathematical object. It has value and interacts mathematically with other quantum values.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Sure. In everyday speech that's what it means. The problem is: you're confusing that meaning with the technical scientific meaning used in physics. Then you're pretending that the everyday meaning is the same as the physics meaning, or that the two meanings are interchangeable.
    As usual, since you're unable to distinguish one scientific concept from the next, you have introduced a new irrelevancy. Note that this "water potential" you've cut-and-pasted is not even the same thing as the "potential energy" you talked about earlier in a similar context. And it's very far from being your usual meaning of "anything that might happen at some time in the future".
    Gee, thanks for letting us all know that I don't know what science is, Write4U.

    Coming from such a prestigious scientific expert as yourself, that criticism really is like a punch in the guts!

    You should try to be nicer to those who can't rise to your lofty heights of science achievement. Have some sympathy for the little guy!
    How could you possibly know? You don't understand Bohm, and you have no clue about any scientific achievements I might have under my belt. I could be Stephen Hawking, for all you know. (Nice job of faking my own death, if so...)
    And if you don't understand Bohm, what follows? Will you admit that you lack scientific proficiency, if it turns out that you don't understand Bohm? I'm thinking not.

    Hypocrite, much?
    No thanks. I read some Bohm 20-30 years ago. That was enough.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2023
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You're overcomplicating things.

    In what you quoted, the word "value" just means "number", essentially. Numbers aren't an "abstraction of a mathematical property". Numbers are mathematical properties.

    The word "quantum" just means a fixed amount of something. In physics, when we say something is "quantised", it most often means that the thing comes only in certain multiples (often, but not always, integer multiples) of a certain basic quantity or unit of measure.

    The words "interacts mathematically" are hopelessly vague. What is a "mathematical interaction"? When I add 2 and 2 and get 4, is that the number 2 "interacting mathematically" with itself to produce a "new" number? What caused that "interaction"? In this case, it looks like it was me.

    You speak as if "mathematical objects" can somehow "interact with" each other, without human intervention. Can you give any examples of such a thing?
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    In what way?
    No, numbers describe mathematical properties.
    A mathematical object?
    What is a function?
    What is a Function in Maths?
    Have a look at chemistry or ask exchemist.
    H2O

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    3d chemical formula of water h2o water molecule on a blue clean background.

    I don't think that H and O atoms in sufficient numbers need human intervention to turn into water, or vapor, or ice, or snowflakes.

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  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    What meandering ballocks. It seems to me that only a physicist could be so narrow-minded and arrogant as to think a molecule “is” a mathematical object. Everything about chemistry tells you that mathematical modelling of chemical processes is a limited and only approximate exercise. It is only in the highly artificial and simplified world of physics that maths can provide apparently complete solutions.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    The Universe presents a dynamical environment that is in constant change, it is perhaps a bit too much asking for absolute precision when natural obstacles mathematically interfere with the growth pattern no matter how hard the growth function tries to follow the evolved mathematical growth pattern. It's environment will not allow undisturbed growth.

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    But here is where the guiding mathematics allow for variation. Not every tree looks alike, but they all followed the same growth sequence. That is why we can tell they are trees. They look sufficiently similar to spot the mathematical growth patterns in all trees, and which Fibonacci codified and symbolized into the familiar exponential pattern.

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    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/7-beautiful-examples-fibonacci-sequence-nature

    p.s. Is there any variation in water molecules or do they form the same triangular pattern exactly the same?

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2023
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Write4U:
    In the way I carefully explained to you in my post. Rather than knee-jerking a reply line by line, try reading the entire post first. Then actually think about it.
    It's not worth diving into that rabbit hole, so I'm not going to.
    A number. For example, the spin of a particle is a number. The energy of a particle is a number. These things are often quantised, which means only certain numbers are physically allowed.
    Relevance: zero.
    Water molecules are molecules, not numbers or functions.

    Relevance: zero.

    Now you're being inconsistent.

    If it is your claim that the universe is mathematics, then all "environments" that are part of the universe are also mathematics. You can't complain about some "natural obstacles" interfering with the beautiful mathematics, because according to you there is only beautiful mathematics to be had - nothing else.

    You'll have to invent some other rationale for why the universe is not mathematically perfect.

    It is not true that all trees follow the same growth sequence.
    The form of a water molecule is determined by its physical properties, not by mathematics.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    Wow, do you mean a mathematical restriction ?
    OK, allow me to make some substitutions.
    For example; "the spin of a particle has a relational value to the spin of another particle, and the energy of a particle has a relational value to the energy of another particle". Do you think that is overcomplicating things?
    But that lies at the heart of the matter. You claim that mathematics is invented rather than discovered by humans.
    I say some theoretical mathematics is human invented because the rules don't change for educated theory applied to several seemingly unrelated functions. Sometimes a natural expression of an until-then-unknown phenomenon actually confirms the mathematics of the human-invented theory.

    Even if Fibonacci invented the FS, as an example of an exponential function. He likes flowers and picks a few daisies to examine in the lab.
    To his surprise, he finds that all his daisies followed his sequenced and codified order. And then the quest began.

    And this is the result of our search for the Fibonacci Sequence occurring in nature. And behold, it's everywhere.
    The Fibonacci Sequence is an evolved mathematical function that natural selection often favored the sequence for many structural mathematical reasons.
    This is just a sampling;

    14 INTERESTING EXAMPLES OF THE GOLDEN RATIO IN NATURE

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    The famous Fibonacci sequence has captivated mathematicians, artists, designers, and scientists for centuries. Also known as the Golden Ratio, its ubiquity and astounding functionality in nature suggests its importance as a fundamental characteristic of the Universe.
    Here are 14 astounding examples of phi in nature.
    more .... https://www.mathnasium.com/blog/14-interesting-examples-of-the-golden-ratio-in-nature
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2023
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,426
    Write4U:
    Yes. The spin of a particle, as I said, is a number that we use in a theory to model physical particles. Mathematical theories can have mathematical restrictions. There's no problem with that.
    You just created more word salad. "Relational value" doesn't mean anything. Also, I don't know what you're talking about when you claim that the spin of one particle relates to the spin of another particle. Same thing with energy. I think you're just making stuff up.
    Yes. For now.
    "Natural expressions" don't include mathematical expressions.
    The FS is not an exponential function.
    You're telling me that his sequence was useful for modelling certain aspects of real-world daisies.
    You still haven't established any causal link between the maths and the natural world. I don't think you can. I don't think Tegmark can, either.
    Mathematical functions cannot evolve.

    Natural selection works on physical things, not mathematical functions.

    And no, the FS was not favoured by natural selection for mathematical reasons. It was favoured for the usual reason: higher "fitness" to the physical environment.
    The Fibonacci sequence is not the Golden Ratio, nor is it known as such. This cut-and-paste can be safely ignored.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    No patterns? You're out on a limb here.
    It is a form of exponential function.

    What is an exponential function?
    Intro to exponential functions | Algebra (video) - Khan Academy
    No, it was useful in real-world survival strategies and mathematical coding, given the prevailing Universal Constants, like gravity, quantum

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    The Golden Ratio seems to play a major role in the deterministic mathematical functions that at least helped shape the universe in regard to the observable "common denominators" of all physical expressions emerging (unfolding) in our reality, from daisies to sunflowers, from snails to galaxies.
    more ....... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,426
    Straw man.
    No, it isn't.

    Look, it's a bit annoying when you presume to correct me while obviously having no clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you take the opportunity to learn something, instead?

    For instance, if you don't know what an exponential function is - and clearly you don't - why not ask somebody who does know? Like me, for instance? Why pretend you know?
    Check against your own definition!

    Hint: it's called the Fibonacci sequence, not the Fibonacci function or the Fibonacci exponential.
    Word salad.
    You continue to fail to address the big question of how any mathematical function could possibly "help to shape" anything in the physical world. Mathematical functions are concepts.

    Apart from that, this is just one more claim you're just making up as you go along. Who do you think you're fooling?
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,077
    Because I like the way this fellow looks at the definition of an "exponential function".

    Intro to exponential functions | Algebra (video) - Khan Academy

    Why not take a peek?

    No, they are the black box where input is processed and an output pattern is formed. The black box is the site of the event itself.
    It is that simple.

    Function (mathematics)
    Association of one output to each input

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    And the above is obviously not how it happens physically in the real world, but rather how physics are inherently mathematical in essence and that is why the imaginary "black box" yields predictable results once we know the mathematics of the Input and available causal energy. We use mathematical physics to calculate the Output, and we know how to do it right in many ways, even with variable values. When you ask the Universe a mathematical question and you use correct mathematics, the Universe will reward you with an answer.
    What more can we demand from our gross experience of natural events occurring all around us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2023
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,959
    Oh look, a direct self-contradiction.

    (Cue twelve screens of randomly triggered articles and definitions...)
     
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