Ironywatch: Turks condemn condemnation of Armenian Genocide by condeming Armenians

Certainly not when the state has already chosen against them. That notion doesn't seem to trouble you, though.

 

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Typical rubbish in this thread: The usual crowd out to demonize the Turks and make connections, mysteriously, to contemporary American politics abroad. . .

As I've stated in another thread, the sad thing about this entire situation is that it's fairly obvious the rest of the world butting into Turko-Armenian relations under delusions of care and concern actually disrupts and harms the people on the ground. I think if everyone shut up about this and left the two alone, they might actually move toward some kind of normalization. But alas, politicians catering to diaspora and various other lobbies with axes to grind are too shortsighted to see this (as apparently are most in this thread, which is no surprise).

AKP, who I am no big fan of, took huge steps in the last 12 months to strengthen ties between the two countries and do something that actually would tangibly help people in both (open the border, start trade). Sadly, that's now all been derailed, and for what?

 

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Count, it's not about "demonizing Turks". It's about accepting some responsibility for a massive genocide.

 

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Sure, it's about demonizing them.

Look at the hostility and rancor in this thread toward them (and toward the one Turk participating, who had nothing to do with the incident). There's nothing to be gained by calling 1915 a "genocide" or any other term other than what's gained through the demonization, politically speaking, and the inevitable lawsuits and property claims that will follow (as was the case against Germany). And whenever someone tries to point this out, (that is, point out the politics), they are immediately labeled an apologist and hounded by people (many of which have never even met a Turk or Armenian).

I'm much more interested in promoting positive relations between Turks and Armenians alive today than I am describing what happened to their forefathers several generations ago. There's nothing in this genocide talk but empty symbolism. Why not direct our energy toward something more positive, more substantive?

 

and as you have ignored acknowledging the crimes committed and the responsibility of them creates peace. look at northern ireland. fuck in Africa cases of genocide like what the turks did to the armenians (Rhwanda I believe. I'll need to look into it) had special courts where the perpatrators came and apoligized to their victims guess what no whole sale demands for compensation and no retaliatation against those that did it. All that was given a simple apology. All we want is for the turks is to take responsibilty for what they did which you steadfastly oppose

their are consequences for crimes You demand that the turks get away with the act that coined the word genocide and still in your completely dishonest fucking bullshit about how you recongize the genocide but refuse to call it that and attack anyone who calls the spade a spade. and don't go crying to string about how I'm making unsubstained claims about you being di9shonest. like last time I told you right to your dishonest face why your being called dishonest.

 

I still don't get that his asseration that the turks accepting responsibility for their actions would harm peace. and by his own arguing he knows it false. look he goes well they don't to pay anything not well it would completely prevent peace. he knows it would facilitate peace.

 

well than how about this the word genocide was coined with this in mind.

 

It may be that the former requires the latter.

Come at it the other way: what are the obstacles to positive relations between Turks and Armenians today?

 

Except the truth.

And what hostility? People were asking her questions, but not attacking her.

 

Indeed. It seems the choice of "words" are partly the issue, less they get tarred with a certain brush.

Really, it would be admirable for them to step up, admit to grave injustice identified for what it is, and move on.

No doubt the internal politics are prohibitive in this regard.

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Local friends in the hood may baulk at a "Holocaust" label. :m:

 

Ignoring the appalling grammar, it's time to call you a liar. I've not ignored the crimes. Indeed, in the last thread you showed your ass in on this topic, I acknowledged them quite openly -- SEVERAL TIMES. Remember this?

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=100037&page=3

And still, you persist in lying about me and my position? And in reality, the fact I don't want to take those crimes and label them genocide, and in doing so, besmirch a nation, is what seems to ire you -- not your incorrect perception that I fail to acknowledge the crimes themselves.

Part of the issue, which hitherto is unacknowledged is that it's not even the "Turks" who did anything. Turkey was created in 1923. The power that committed heinous crimes against Armenia in 1915 was the Ottoman Empire. In particular, it was a rather sinister group of radicals in the CUP party. Enver Pasha and the Tesiklati Mahusa -- which you've never heard of -- were the main perpetrators of the crimes. These men were literally run out of Turkey by Ataturk after the war.

I don't ever run to anyone. The fact is you're personally attacking me and misrepresenting my opinions and positions. I've acknowledged what happened to the Armenians several times to you now. I do so again in this post. Either you can't read or you've chosen to continue to lie in some vain effort to defame me. Whichever is the case, I don't care. You need to grow up, by Strunk and White and learn how to debate.

We have reality to torpedo all of this. By that I mean that anyone who watches Turkey was hopeful that the so-call soccer diplomacy begun by AKP last year would bear fruit with Armenia. We had, in other words, glimmers of peace. What derailed it? Resolutions from naive Westerners who have no actual stake in the political game, beyond their own obvious electoral bullshit (see California, where all the Armenia resolutions emerge from). So now we have the relations of two countries derailed by outsiders and peace further away. . .

If you want peace, if that's really what you care about, leave them the fuck alone and let them sort it out. But I suspect for you, and many of the other posters, it's not about peace, it's about the blame game and demonizing a long disliked and mistrusted power.

It would seem among the biggest are stupid, non-substantive resolutions from third-party countries that have no business judging other peoples' history from afar.

I think applying loose definitions to past events is tricky business. I think applying loose definitions to the past for specious political reasons is even trickier. What's more it's disingenuous and immoral.

If you notice, my defense of the Turks has been swooped upon fairly quickly, too. Notice PJ's childish rant?

 

Seriously? What import would such third-party resolutions carry, absent an underlying political rift between the parties in the first place?

 

Countezero, how can you say it to be of poor motive? God's sakes, man, a couple million of them were killed. Do you presume they should think nothing of it? Of course it's political - as a movement of international expression, how can it be anything else?

 

No you white washed it every single fucking time. You refuse to call it what it is a genocide. You have tried to down play it.

thank you for proving me right.

every word I have said is true.?

Yes it angers me me that you refuse to call the act that the word genocide was created basically to fucking describe as not a genocide. its also completely dishonest. And acknowledging it as a genocide is not besmirching turkey any more than acknowledging the holcaust is besmirching germany.

their is nothing incorrect with my perception. yet more lies from the master of mendacity. Your downplaying it and whitewashing it. hell you've even blamed the fucking victims. that's not acknowledging it. what your doing is tanmaount to the claim the the nazis did katyn.

So you given up on lies and gone with stupity now?

ottaman empire and turkey are the same people the ottoman turks.

 

Plenty.

See the German and Japanese examples.

A nation pays a serious cost for being dubbed a genocidal power. It also faces costly reparation lawsuits about land and property and suffering. In many cases, this site included, people are comparing the Ottoman Turks to the Nazis and the forced relocation -- or whatever you want to call it -- to the holocaust. Those are palpable comparisons (and inaccurate in my view).

Because I believe it is.

The people pushing for recognition are the diaspora in Europe and America. Armenia is no longer the leading voice. The people paying lip service to the diaspora are ignorant politicians who want donations from rich Armenian donors. So it's not as if the gentleman from California cares about human rights, history or Armenians and Turks. He wants money to get reelected.

I think plenty of it, but you're ignoring the larger political reality in favor of one that is biased and disproportionately anti-Turk.

As I argued elsewhere, no discussion of this issue takes into account what was happening in WW1, ASALA or the Armenians current campaign to cleanse Nagorno Karabagh. You want to talk irony? Talk about the world condemning the Turks for what the Armenians are doing now in Karabagh. None of this, of course, undoes what the Turks did -- or somehow makes it okay. But it does give a context for what the larger issue today is, and those larger issues seem ignored time and again in favor of another, more convenient focus.

 

Well well what do you. Even I can agree with countezero, unlikely as that seems. I would hazard a guess the counte has actually been to Turkey. Nothing like living among a people to see with such clarity

/just kill me now

 

your not going to get get a lasting peace with out resolving this issue and that is going to take the turks accepting responsbilty for it. just because it was a previous government that did it doesn't absolve the people who supported it and defended it who turks before the fall of the ottoman empire and turks afterwords.