Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. river

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    Writ4U , patterns without the physical , is not possible .

    Highlighted

    What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. Microtubule networks are present in all living organisms and can be modelled
    Two simple tubulins are organized in the microtubule-organizing centers in the centrosome
    Abstract

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    Figure 1
    Organization of MTOCs and microtubules in a variety of cell types
    Microtubules (red) are organized by MTOCs (blue), the arrangement and localization of which varies with cell type. Drawings are not to scale.
    more..........
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5362366/

    see also:
    Synapses and Memory Storage
    Mark Mayford,1 Steven A. Siegelbaum,2 and Eric R. Kandel2
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367555/

    and
    Microtubules in neurons as information carriers
    Erik W. Dent, PhD

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    1 and Peter W. Baas, PhD3
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/
     
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  5. river

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    What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?

    Write4U .
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Evolution of biochemical molecule formation. This is not unusual.
    Many substances self-form into very specific patterns. The key of course is dynamic interaction what brings individual chemicals in contact and the four fundamental attractive forces do the rest. I believe it is called chirality

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    Natural selection then weeds out the weak links and the strong links survive . Those strong links form patterns.

    here is a graphene pattern:

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    Graphene sheet

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    Carbon buckyballs
    In graphene, carbon atoms are packed in a planar honeycomb network. The unit cell of single-layer graphene consists of two carbon atoms, separated by 1.42 Å, with a lattice constant of 2.46 Å. Each atom has s, px and py orbitals and is bonded to three neighbor atoms in the lattice, forming an sp2 atomic network.
     
  8. river

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    [QUOTE="Write4U, post: 3685558, member: 2618Evolution of biochemical molecule formation. This is not unusual.
    Many substances self-form into very specific patterns. The key of course is dynamic interaction what brings individual chemicals in contact and the four fundamental attractive forces do the rest. I believe it is called chirality

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    Natural selection then weeds out the weak links and the strong links survive . Those strong links form patterns.

    here is a graphene pattern:

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    Graphene sheet View attachment 4485 Carbon buckyballs
    In graphene, carbon atoms are packed in a planar honeycomb network. The unit cell of single-layer graphene consists of two carbon atoms, separated by 1.42 Å, with a lattice constant of 2.46 Å. Each atom has s, px and py orbitals and is bonded to three neighbor atoms in the lattice, forming an sp2 atomic network.[/QUOTE]

    Why Evolve ?

    Do you really understand all this ?
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    [quote"river, post: 3685560, member: 179019"] Why Evolve ? [/quote] In a dynamic environment it cannot do otherwise. Put Hydrogen and Oxygen together in large numbers and densities and you get water or ice (a mineral)
    The atoms are attracted to each other and under the right condition, they cannot do anything other than form water.
    I understand the logical concepts. The actual details require years of study and knowledge which I never had an opportunity to acquire. But I am a pretty good researcher.

    When I read a scientific paper, the symbolic calculations are usually way outside my scope of knowledge. But if the scientist reviewer is clear and precise I can usually understand and follow the logical narrative.

    In the field of bio-chemistry I really like Robert Hazen. His lectures are clear and transparent.
    IMO, he has clearly explained the concepts of self-assembly and self-formation of minerals and how this process resulted in the formation of biomolecules and the evolution of "molecular patterns" which eventually transformed purely chemical dynamics into living patterns and from there the evolutionary increase in sensitivity to environmental conditions, leading to sentience and finally the ability for conscious decision making.

    This is why I usually state my conceptual beliefs in a generic manner but support my limited knowledge of detail with quotes and excerpts of scientific papers from reliable sources.

    I do read what I post and understand the principles of what is presented, and feel relatively confident that I can defend the fundamental precepts of a particular scientific perspective.

    I admit there are subjects which I won't touch, as they are just too esoteric for my limited knowledge.
     
  10. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    In a dynamic environment it cannot do otherwise. Put Hydrogen and Oxygen together in large numbers and densities and you get water or ice (a mineral)
    The atoms are attracted to each other and under the right condition, they cannot do anything other than form water.
    I understand the logical concepts. The actual details require years of study and knowledge which I never had an opportunity to acquire. But I am a pretty good researcher.

    When I read a scientific paper, the symbolic calculations are usually way outside my scope of knowledge. But if the scientist reviewer is clear and precise I can usually understand and follow the logical narrative.

    In the field of bio-chemistry I really like Robert Hazen. His lectures are clear and transparent.
    IMO, he has clearly explained the concepts of self-assembly and self-formation of minerals and how this process resulted in the formation of biomolecules and the evolution of "molecular patterns" which eventually transformed purely chemical dynamics into living patterns and from there the evolutionary increase in sensitivity to environmental conditions, leading to sentience and finally the ability for conscious decision making.

    This is why I usually state my conceptual beliefs in a generic manner but support my limited knowledge of detail with quotes and excerpts of scientific papers from reliable sources.

    I do read what I post and understand the principles of what is presented, and feel relatively confident that I can defend the fundamental precepts of a particular scientific perspective.

    I admit there are subjects which I won't touch, as they are just too esoteric for my limited knowledge. [/QUOTE]

    Fair enough , to your last statement . We all have limited knowledge . Nowadays there is so much information , there is no way any of us can , could ever keep up .
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    I agree. David Bohm observed that science has become so specialized that it has fractured any understanding of common denominators and relationships, in his book; "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".

    Bohm Dialogue
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_Dialogue
     
  12. river

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    Holistic .
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The best, not the worst of both worlds!
     
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  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Self-organization of microtubules and motors
    Nature volume 389, pages305–308 (1997)Cite this article
    Abstract
    https://www.nature.com/articles/38532#
     
  15. river

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Being that MT are found in ALL eukaryotic organisms (in a simpler form in prokaryotes), it is axiomatic that the MT must have been one of the first self-assembling bio-chemical polymers and due to its dynamic growth properties may well have been instrumental in the abiogenetic bridging between bio-chemistry and life itself.

    Moreover, being such an ancient property of all life, it also suggests that

    Microtubules in Bacteria: Ancient Tubulins Build a Five-Protofilament Homolog of the Eukaryotic Cytoskeleton

    Abstract

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001213#

    The more I learn about the history and range of functional abilities at the very fundamental levels of living organisms, I am confident in suggesting microtubules are also instrumental in the emergent awareness of sentient data processing and may well form the actual substrate and dynamic mechanism for emergent consciouness.

    Of course there is more involved in the actual expression of conscious experience, but IMO the entire neural network and especially the MT network in the brain is responsible for the emergence of self-aware thought.

    The components are not sentient. It is the act of processing data, whence consciousness emerges.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  17. river

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    Highlighted

    Experiences . Come first . Biological Components are sentient . Hence consciousness .
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I believe you are misusing the word sentient in this context. IMO, a better word might be "sensitive".

    I see a difference between;
    a) sensitive = reactive to stimuli
    b) sentient = conscious self-awareness

    A chemical may be sensitive and reactive, but not conscious. Water may turn into Ice, but doesn't know it.
    A human brain is conscious as an evolved excellence of sensitivity and reactivity. A human may watch water turn into Ice and wonder how that works.
     
  19. river

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    From your post#2215 , Write4U


    Agreed .
     
  20. river

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    Evolution from a to b .
     
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  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yessss! The evolution of the eye and vision (the processing of sensory data) is the perfect example.

    From a light-sensitive chemical growth machine in sunflowers causing the flowers to track the sun in the sky for maximum growth potential, to an eagle's ability to spot a mouse from a mile high. The natural selection driven creative artistry in beneficial survival strategies is just awesome to contemplate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    duplicate
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may add another perspective of the importance of the role played by microtubule network as part of the energy distribution along the cell membrane of the bacterium depicted.

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