Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Done.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is where I like Tegmark's suggestion that rather than asking the hard question which we don't even know how to pose, we should start with hard facts such as the fact that we have consciousness and we know quite a bit as to how it behaves and how we can control it in several ways.
    We have ever-increasing accurate maps and now that we are able to look deep into nano-scale physics, we can gather statistical data on hard facts,

    It is inevitable that with enough statistical data some patterns will begin to emerge that will point to some common denominators in the various stages and levels of emergent consciousness.
    Exactly, there is already overwhelming evidence that proto-consciousness begins very early on in single-celled organisms that lack brains or neural networks, but do possess microtubule networks (cytoskeletons) that control all the dynamic behaviors of these rudimentary forms of life. Apparently, this is what intrigued Penrose. Does the cytoskeleton have memory and reactive plasticity in response to external pressures?
    Yes, this is where the terms like "orchestrated objective reduction", "integrated information" , and "general correlation" begin to address the known "hard facts".
    I agree, unless there is something that has escaped me completely, I see a perfectly logical direction of concerted research and data sharing.

    I have quoted David Bohm before that science has become so specialized that much of it has become fractured and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

    There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of scientists studying brain function and whereas there are many groups doing outstanding work, there is very little "orchestrated coordination" by all these brilliant minds.

    That is an ironic twist.
    All these questions are being investigated from what I see. The real question is how much is shared with others so that duplicate research can be avoided and that from all the results the models will "emerge" all by themselves, along with more "integrated" knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Mod Note

    None of which has to do with COVID19, this discussion or the OP:
    You have thrown yet another thread completely off topic because you cannot help yourself but to talk about your pet obsession.

    The sad part is that microtubules, particularly in various inhibiting drugs when it comes to cancer, is actually quite interesting. But no one will ever want to discuss it here because you would completely flood the thread or discussion with consciousness crap, as you are doing in this thread.. Which is about COVID19.. And what do you do? Find the first opportunity to bring in microtubules and consciousness. You cannot help yourself. You have an entire thread dedicated to microtubules. Keep it all contained there.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But nothing to do with how viruses propagate? OK

    This is my last post in this thread.

    Does cancer work like a virus?

    Cancer cells force normal cells to mimic viruses to help tumors spread, resist treatment
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170713165435.htm

    click.
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    This is quite funny, as one thing it is impossible to do is to put a moderator on Ignore.

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  10. Bells Staff Member

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    Mod Note

    Let's keep the flaming and trolling out of the thread.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is an example of in-depth research in neural brain processes. Remarkable that microtubules that do all hard work are never mentioned. A perfect example of fractured research in a common area of interest.

    A new way to capture the brain’s electrical symphony

    High-speed process
    ORCH OR, PHI IIT, PSII theories all propose a massive interconnected (orchestrated, integrated) neural network, which combined with the memory function enables the brain to acquire an emergent consciousness and implications of the sensory data from the environment.
    All in the detail

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Dendrites In Vitro and In Vivo Contain Microtubules of Opposite Polarity and Axon Formation Correlates with Uniform Plus-End-Out Microtubule Orientation

    Abstract

    SIGNIFICANCE STATEMENT

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4728718/
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Is there a correlation between mathematically orchestrated neural functions and the emergence of intelligence?

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    Kelliher, Michael & Saunders, Harriet & Wildonger, Jill. (2019). Microtubule control of functional architecture in neurons. urrent Opinion in Neurobiology. 57. 39-45. 10.1016/j.conb.2019.01.003.
    ...more
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure...t-diverse-roles-within-neurons_fig1_334837860

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    In the context of cancer, the tubulin family of proteins is recognized as the target of the tubulin-binding chemotherapeutics, which suppress the dynamics of the mitotic spindle to cause mitotic arrest and cell death.[/quote]
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2014.00153/full

    If this may seem somewhat irrelevant in context of consciousness, but it is not any specific function that microtubules perform, but all of the functions they perform and all relating to electrochemical data processing.

    Now conceptualize an orchestrated neural network that processes electrochemical data with physically deterministic mathematical computative functions. If all these processes add up to the appearance of some form of unconscious but intelligent function, is it such a great leap to suggest an emergent awareness of all these functions in the form of integrated and orchestrating objective reduction into sentient thought processes, i.e. consciousness?
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    https://7news-com-au.cdn.ampproject...ned-how-to-reproduce-scientists-say-c-4823775

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    Microtubule dynamics in Xenopus egg extracts
    Abstract
    There is an extensive record of microtubules affording hunting and "eating" abilities in single celled organisms.

    As the Xenopus experiement involved selection of specific body shapes (U shape) it stands to reason that this body type and behavior is facilitated by the cytoskeleton and microtubule motors of the Xenopus.

    The evidence is just overwhelming. Microtubules are the common denominator in all "organelles" that afford single celled organisms to execute dynamic behaviors to maintain life!


    Prc1E and Kif4A control microtubule organization within and between large Xenopus egg asters
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_between_large_Xenopus_egg_asters/download

    The multifunctional spindle midzone in vertebrate cells at a glance
    Article , Patricia Wadsworth, May 2021
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...indle_midzone_in_vertebrate_cells_at_a_glance
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    An essential history of the evolution of consciousness.

     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Live lecture:
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That's a very interesting read, if you're into octopuses. (I've read it.) I don't regard it as a history of consciousness. Also, I don't see how this connects to the thread topic. I don't recall the book mentioning microtubules, for example.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That's odd, I read a clear narrative of the evolution from fundamental chemical response mechanisms to ever greater neural complexity and sensory acuity that must have led to the emergence of conscious awareness of self and environment.

    I particularly was surprised to read that emergent consciousness followed two separate evolutionary paths in land-dwellers like humans and ocean-dwellers like the octopus, due to the completely incompatible environments requiring entirely novel survival techniques.

    IMO it showed the awesome versatility in evolutionary processes as long as microtubules (neurons) are present.

    I don't understand why you still reject the notion that microtubules are the single common denominator in all Eukaryotic lifeforms, both in the cellular cytoplasm and the neural networks of the body and brain, and even in plants for photosynthesis and distribution of energy throughout the leaves and stems.

    Penrose was particularly interested in very simple single celled organism that did not have neural networks but did have cytoskeletons (microtubules) and were able communicate, coordinate, effect transport and navigation, mitosis and cell divisio, memory storage and recognition. If that is enough to pique a Nobel Prize winning scientist, who feels qualified to dismiss his curiosity as a waste of time?

    That microtubules are the primary active organelles in electrochemical data processing and transport, is demonstrated fact. If this is not yet clear it is due to lack of interest and minimal study on the subject.

    A brief overview:
    Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron

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    Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron?

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    From Y tambe
    much, much more....... do take the time to read this comprehensive review of microtubule function.
    https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron

    In reviewing your book, Ray Kurzweil has said that “cellular conversations might be related to the emergence of intelligence and consciousness.” What does your book imply about the definition of Life?

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    https://jonlieffmd.com/category/blog/cellular-intelligence-blog
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Write4U:

    Can you find any mention of the word "microtubules" in the book? I don't recall any.
    Eukaryotic lifeforms have lots of common denominators, so why you would single out microtubules would be a mystery, were it not for your record of fanboy devotion to them.
    Penrose's interest in them was put forward at least 30 years ago, now, as a tentative hypothesis in a book that was mostly about something else.

    I have not said that the study of microtubules is a waste of time, or anything like that. I have said that there's no good evidence for wild claims such as your ones that they are involved in memory, consciousness, recognition, coordination, etc. The vast majority of the sources you spam to this thread have nothing to do with any of that, either, even though this is your central thesis.
     
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  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The term neuron always includes microtubules. They are the heart of neurons and all cells for that matter. MT make up the cytoskeleton of ALL Eukaryotic organisms. Look it up!
    Name the functional common denominators in ALL Eukaryotic organisms that are present in the trillions of dynamic data processing networks throughout the entire body, effectively making the entire body an extension of the central processor brain.
    Penrose was astounded that single cells without any neural network could still communicate via the cytoskeleton (microtubules) itself. It is that remarkable ability in single celled organisms that raised the question if microtubules are suitable for quantum processing of qubits. This is how the collaboration with Hameroff came about.
    There is recent evidence that this might well be the case.
    And that is where you are wrong, due to willful refusal to put any serious research into the subject.

    If you have access to Research Gate, check them out for serious and formal presentations of current state of research into the nanoworld of microtubules.

    An off-hand example of the role microtubules in neuronal cells.

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    Guidance signaling downstream pathways involved in MT dynamics in the axon and GC I: MT-stabilizing, MT-destabilizing and MT-polymerization supporters.
    With the Permission of Microtubules: An Updated Overview on Microtubule Function During Axon Pathfinding,
    Carlos Sanchez-Huertas, Eloísa Herrera
    Cite , Download full-text

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-dynamics-in-the-axon-and-GC-I_fig2_356743838
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That's a "no", then. As I thought.
    As I understand it, they are structural components.
    You speak as if there are "dynamic data processing networks" throughout the entire body. What evidence do you have for data processing at the microtubule level (as opposed to the the neuronal level)? Anything?
    It's not really my field of expertise, and I'm not that interested. I'm sure that researchers in the field will let us know if they ever discover any actual "data processing" or whatever.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    How odd. You accuse me of posting anything that has the word microtubule in it. Now you accuse me of posting about neurons that have microtubules in them but does not explicitly mention microtubules.
    Yes, you have an extremely limited understanding of microtubules and their importance.
    I anticipated that question for a long time now, demonstrating that you have no clue about the functions microtubules perform.

    What do microtubules do in neurons?
    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations
    Abstract
    Introduction

    much more.......
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2[/quote]
    That is obvious.
    Too bad you are not interested enough to read the state of knowledge about the role microtubules play in "data processing" at all levels and individual cells of all Eukaryotic organisms and in proto form in Prokaryotic organisms.
    There is lots of fascinating information available on the roles microtubules play in both unconscious and conscious living organisms.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I am sure you know that neurons are cells. Microtubules in the cytoplasm are what form and control the structure and behavior of cells.
    Microtubule Structures Shape the Entire Cell

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    Microtubules and actin scaffolding direct all of this.

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    From Kelvinsong

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    When the axon starts and grows the cell’s shape becomes polar and asymmetric. The neurite (start of the axon) grows with bundles of microtubules and a very active actin growth cone. This complex process involves mechanical actions of both.
    https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022

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