Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    12,347
    Surely consciousness is a CONCEPT and as such not suitable for detection

    You may ask a person (as I was required to do frequently) if a person was " aware of your surroundings" and a few like questions to guage the person's level of being conscious

    Consciousness goes one level higher, in such, the person is not only aware (perhaps just as important alert to their surroundings) and is conscious and alert of being conscious and alert along with being a independent entity able to act independently, not merely subject to forces outside of theirself

    I would contend once a entity gains the ability of being conscious and alert add a few more neurones to the processing unit and CONSCIOUSNESS will arise

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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It is an emergent sophistication in sensory reception and awareness of meaning, evolved from the fundamental need for "life-sustaining energy " and "fight or flight" survival mechanisms.

    This sensory awareness begins very early in the cytoplasm of even single-celled organisms like the paramecium.

    Watch these Amoebas, microtubular pseudopods, hunt Parameciums that are trying to escape via their microtubular ciliary propulsion.


    and this perfect example of microtubule catastrophe, causing the loss of cytoplasm and the resulting death of this organism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    How can billvon be missing his own point?
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Because it isn't relevant to the phenomenon we are discussing.

    But perhaps you misunderstand billvon and you are the one missing the relevance. Maybe billvon can confirm your understanding of the point he was making.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    In regard to ORCH OR this may be of interest.

    What is quantum coherence?

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps it is time to restate the basic conceptualization of ORCH OR

    Orchestrated reduction of quantum coherence in brain microtubules: A model for consciousness
    StuartHameroff/RogerPenrose

    Abstract

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0378475496804769
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Well yes, your post # 5 itself is 4 years old and all the objection mentioned in that post have been addressed and resolved. If you had read some of my posts you would be familiar with the current state of critical reviews.

    Most objections have been proven premature and some valid objections due to flawed maths have been addressed and corrected.

    There are no outstanding objections. There are still a number of unresolved questions, but there is currently no danger of an outstanding argument that would be fatal to ORCH OR or any of the similarly based competing hypotheses. ORCH OR is not the only proposition that uses terms like Orchestration, or Integration, or Global Workspace, all requiring a form of Reduction.
    https://www.economist.com/the-world...theories-of-consciousness-are-put-to-the-test

    The Role of Predictions in Consciousness - Lucia Melloni
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    11,205
    Well I've just checked and here is the current version of the same link I posted in post 5 four years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

    The text I quoted four years ago has not been changed. So it is false to say the objection have been overcome. They haven't. Orch-OR is just as much a dead end now as it was then - in fact more so, since more time has elapsed.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    Well, the text of the bible hasn't changed in 3000 years and it is still wrong.

    A repost of a recent article re; ORCH OR

    ‘Orch OR’ is the most complete, and most easily falsifiable theory of consciousness
    Stuart Hameroff
    Pages 74-76 | Received 02 Sep 2020, Published online: 24 Nov 2020

    ABSTRACT

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17588928.2020.1839037

    And this lecture at the Qualcomm Institute. January 10, 2020
    Roth Auditorium - Sanford Consortium for Regenerative Medicine La Jolla, CA


    Be prepared for some mindblowing propositions by a Nobel prize laureate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    Trying to stay current.

    Signal transmission through elements of the cytoskeleton form an optimized information network in eukaryotic cells
    Scientific Reports volume 9, Article number: 6110 (2019)

    Abstract

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    Signal transmission through elements of the cytoskeleton form an optimized information network in eukaryotic cells - Scientific Reports

    Multiple prior empirical and theoretical studies have demonstrated wire-like flow of electrons and ions along elements of the cytoskeleton but this has never been linked to a biological function. Here we propose that eukaryotes use this mode of signal transmission to convey spatial and temporal...

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    www.nature.com

    And we have the rudimentary beginnings of a generalized conscious response system. In the brain, this may well be the model for the evolution of self-aware consciousness.



     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    And a little reminder of what the microtubule population in the cytoplasm and cytoskeleton of each individual cell in the body looks like.

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    Credit
    THOMAS DEERINCK, NCMIR / SCIENCE PHOTO LIBRARY

    Caption

    https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/214761/view/cell-microtubules-light-micrograph

    Now imagine 1oo trillion cells connected by 1000 trillion synapses in brain alone constantly processing and transporting electrochemical information.

    One can see that the resulting network is unmatched by any other physically connective structures.

    If consciousness emerges from somewhere at all, the microtubule network is the ONLY qualifying candidate, IMO.
     
  16. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    11,574
    Your opinion is not worth much.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    And this, your opinion isn't worth anything at all.

    Obviously, you are completely ignorant about this subject and have no clue as to what I am talking about. Try to inform yourself before you make a "contribution" to this conversation.

    If you cannot refrain from ad hominem , it's better you don't post at all and soil this informative thread with your NON-SENSE, ok?
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,127
    Of course it isn't!

    You haven't ruled out the possibility that consciousness emerges as a result of connections between neurons, way above the size scale of anything that's happening in microtubules.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    Without microtubules there isn't any connection. Synapses are the terminal ends of microtubule bundles inside axions and dendrites!

    Dynamic microtubules at the synapse
    Erik W. Dent1,*
    Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer

    Abstract
    more....
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7423735/

    All cellular connections at all scales are provided by microtubules. Doesn't anybody read any of the quoted science?

    What you are asking is if an electrical network can have an electric field without copper wiring inside the cable transporting the electricity. Can it?

    Do dendrites connect to synapses?

    Stanford study reveals growing neurons gain an edge by making connections

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    A normal Purkinje brain cell (top) and a Purkinje cell with a GluD2 gene mutation (bottom) that affects the ability to make early synaptic connections with neighbors. (Image credit: Andrew Shuster)
    https://news.stanford.edu/2021/03/11/growing-neurons-gain-edge-making-connections/

    Dendrites In Vitro and In Vivo Contain Microtubules of Opposite Polarity and Axon Formation Correlates with Uniform Plus-End-Out Microtubule Orientation
    Kah Wai Yau,1,* Philipp Schätzle,1,* Elena Tortosa,1 Stéphane Pagès,2 Anthony Holtmaat,2 Lukas C. Kapitein,

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    1 and Casper C. Hoogenraad

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    1

    Abstract

    ........

    The brain’s wiring

    ........
    SIGNIFICANCE STATEMENT
    Keywords: cytoskeleton, dendrites, development, microtubule dynamics, neuron, polarity

    Much more........this is a formal paper.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4728718/#
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    More on synaptic connection:

    A conceptual view at microtubule plus end dynamics in neuronal axons

    Author panel; AndréVoelzmanna, InesHahna, Simon P.Pearceab, NataliaSánchez-Sorianoc, AndreasProkopa

    Highlights
    . Axons are the cable-like extensions of neurons which wire the brain.
    . Axon formation and maintenance requires ordered microtubule (MT) bundles.
    . We discuss the mechanisms that regulate the de/polymerisation of axonal MTs.
    . We discuss the model of local homeostasis to explain the maintenance of MT bundles.

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    Fig. 1. Life stages of axons. Images show one neuron during its various life stages, with the cell body on the left and axon on the right; MTs are shown as green interrupted lines, actin in magenta and muscles as pink round shapes. The different life stages are indicated in the headings, and the various biological processes associated with those stages are annotated in each figure. (For interpretation of the references to colour in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)

    1. Introduction
    more.......
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361923016301885#fig0015
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    continued from thread "Is mass a number"

    My search led me to this astounding video.

    This video may be revelatory of interpretation of natural fractals and how this might affect consciousness.

     

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