Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, there is.
    It's called Causal Dynamical Triangulation (CDT)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation
     
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  3. TheVat Registered Member

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    A couple thoughts

    One, the universe has physical properties, by definition. Not mathematical properties. Math is a system of symbols used by some brains to describe regular patterns in the universe and in the brain's perceptions and manipulations of sensory input. Tegmark is a Platonist who likes to see the universe as somehow "made of math," which for many of us is confusing the map with the territory.

    Two, I am okay with occasional quotes, but would cast a vote here for fewer of these enormous citation dumps. The effect, just speaking for myself here, is of asking someone for the time and they read me a monograph on wristwatch design.

    For example, if someone questions the reality of quantum entanglement between tubulin dimers, you may assume they have sufficient grounding in cytology and chemistry to not need a barrage of quotes and citations. All that's needed is for you to define one experiment that could show such quantum operations, and link to a paper based on such an experiment. IIRC, someone at University of Alberta is doing such experiments....got a name here: Jack Tuszynski. Has he gotten anywhere? (if his work is downthread somewhere, you need only direct me there, and save yourself the time of reposting)
     
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  5. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Just on microtubules.

    There are about 70 trillion cells in the human body all metabolising, every second.
    I do not know how many different biochemical reactions that involves but everything from immune response, hormonal, neurotransmitter, protein synthesis, gaseous exchange, ion channels and all the activities on the membrane.
    Are MT the only candidate?

    EDIT: Estimate is 30 trillion not 70 but I will leave my original post. Estimated 39 bacterial cell in the human body too.
    Do the bacteria contribute to consciousness too? More than half?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2023
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  7. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And normally I would have accompanied that statement with a quote and picture.

    Dipole–Dipole Interactions in Microtubules
    Jacques E. Schoutens

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    Abstract
    more ....
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482090/

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    https://step1.medbullets.com/biochemistry/102076/microtubules
     
  9. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    You are doing well PLEASE no more pasting!
    I can look for myself. (Third time)
    Can I outline what I studied at university?

    Cell biology, biochemistry, nerve and endocrine physiology, anatomy, the cellular basis of disease, immunology.... among other things.

    All of these modules involved looking at the primary -tertiary structure of the proteins involved. If known.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    yes, but your are identifying data, not the processors and transmitters.
    Yes, because they are necessary for all transport of all Electro-Chemical data processing.
    But we are not talking about cells , but microtubules. There are far more microtubules than there are cells.
    https://medicine.yale.edu/lab/colon_ramos/overview/#

    AFAIK, there are 10 times as many bacteria as human cells. When counting DNA that number grows to 100 times.
    I don't think so, but it is a fact that bacteria do communicate with each other via "chemical words" and "quorum sensing". Do they communicate? Proto-consciousness?

    Bacterial Symbionts and Their Hosts
    more .... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867406009652
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2023
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I've been waiting for someone like you.

    I'm sorry that my quoted passages annoy you. I can see that now.

    But I post not only to erudite scholars who are familiar with the science, but also to interested laymen like myself and who have limited research abilities. I provide some "selected" excerpts from "reputable" sources

    I am retired and visit a lot of websites. Where information is available I try to pick reputable sources and peer reviewed articles. That way I know that in my specific ignorance, I am not misrepresenting the science.

    I'll try to keep quotes to a minimum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2023
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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I have heard that before. But what data is a map based on? We can say that the territory has only physical properties, but that is misleading. We could not make maps unless the physical properties are measurable for copying @ exact ratios.

    What if we ask if the Universe has only some mathematical properties. Would that notion be rejected outright?
    If not, why should there only be part of the universe with mathematical properties. Why not all of it?
    What is the fatal flaw in that argument.

    We do not invent natural maths. We discover natural maths, codify the ratios, and represent the values and functions with symbolic mathematics.

    Ratio
    Description
    This type of measurement is intrinsically mathematical.

    What exactly is the objection to an underlying mathematical structure to the dynamics inside a geometric object like the spacetime manifold? Especially when the only alternative is "irreducible complexity"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2023
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    POst #2895 is all my own words except for a quote of Chaos theory and a Youtube lecture by Max Tegmark.

    What can possibly be wrong about that?
    Right, but Russian mathematics is the same as all other mathematics.
    I am not sure I understand that. Do you mean Quantum mechanics has changed with new empirical data over time? I believe it goes deeper than that. I see the term "quantum" as addressing values or sets of values. And the quantum interaction (collapse of the superposition) In any case, Quantum Theory is a mathematical theory.
    Yes indeed, I am a fan of Tegmark and a mathematical universe.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Check out Post # 2532 Page #127 for a list of scientists researching consciousness and microtubules.
     
  15. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    A quick reminder of what quantum theory is because this is important.

    This theory came about because there were phenomena that could not be explained by classical theory.

    If I fire a canon ball from point x with velocity v at angle α, we can work out where it will land and the maximum height it will reach.

    You cannot do that with a particle, it does not even make sense to describe the particle in terms of a trajectory, you can only assign probabilities to where it will be picked up on a detector.

    You cannot say that it is velocity v, position x in the same way you can with a cannon ball.

    This is very different to classical mechanics.

    The maths describing quantum objects like particles and photons has a different structure too, very different.


    Add to this concepts like: wave function; uncertainty principle, spin; interference; superposition and entanglement, none of these have direct classical analogues (ignoring things like conservation of momentum for colliding balls and angular momentum)

    “collapse of the wave function” is related to a “measurement” once the particle is picked up at a point on the detector the possibility of it being elsewhere is zero.

    Difficult to describe just using words, you can plot probability for position say and you will get probability distribution, where it is high, good chance of locating the particle and much lower at the sides.

    In blue is two dimensions but the world we live in is in three, diagram on the right. Once measured you can see the function on the right reduces to a point because it has been detected.

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  16. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    I did not post that because I want you think I know everything as I do not.

    Those units were covered a long time ago and although one tried to keep up it practically impossible to keep up with multiple topics.

    I have covered it at some point was my point.


    I chanced my arm and googled mitosis and MT and sure enough there they are, you may have mentioned them in this context?

    So they have multiple functions in different cells and they are also in bacteria, this means they would have been on the planet for about 3 billion years before people.


    So we have a family proteins present in the ancient biosphere for billions of years, why consciousness just for us? Consciousness in one function only when they are present in many species performing many functions?
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    There is a long dormant model by David Bohm, the "Pilot Wave Theory", that is making a comeback!
    The Pilot Wave model proposes that the Universe itself has a wave function and that All particles are carried by this wave function and do not have the particle-wave duality, but are particle even in transit. The interesting part is that if applied to the double slit experiment, the results are the same as in the standard model.

    The pilot wave theory

    Principles

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    (a) A walker in a circular corral. Trajectories of increasing length are colour-coded according to the droplet’s local speed (b) The probability distribution of the walker’s position corresponds roughly to the amplitude of the corral’s Faraday wave mode.[19]
    And I am particularly enchanted with Bohm's coining of the "Implicate" (enfolded potential) and "Explicate" (unfolded manifest) orders.
    Yes, and while it may not seem directly related to "consciousness", the mitotic spindle is a "copy machine" that makes copies of chromosomes with exquisite precision, a very useful ability. However, mitosis is subject to external pressures that may introduce random alterations, which are then tested via natural selection for survival advantage or disadvantage. The long-term result is surprising.
    https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/02/405686/mysterious-98-scientists-look-shine-light-our-dark-genome#
    But consciousness is not just for humans. Consciousness is manifest in many organisms. And before self-aware consciousness, it is "sensitivity" to environmental pressures (Paramecium), via microtubule-induced action potentials.

    Here is where I looked for a common denominator in biological organisms that might serve as a fundamental "sensory data processing and transporting" system (pattern).
    And behold, that common denominator is the microtubule, which is present in ALL Eukaryotic life and in simpler form already in Prokaryotic life. While individual MT are well suited to process electro-chemical data, according to Tegmark, the physical processors may not be as important as the pattern they are arranged in, creating a field that may have certain internal holographic properties. (Bohm again)

    But IMHO this event may have been causal to the extraordinary power of the human brain and there is a historical marker that may have witnessed the beneficial evolutionary genetic "mutation".
    See:
    Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
    Alec MacAndrew
    Introduction

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    Note the size of the fused chromosome. What extra data processing abilities did the new "pattern" create? http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

    I believe that this event was responsible for the extraordinary brain growth that allowed for a large brain, sophisticated awareness of the environment, and ability to predict the future.

    Note that only humans have the fused compound chromosome, which has to be the historical marker where humans became "homo sapiens" and split off from our common ancestor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2023
  18. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Please don't revert back.
    I was explaining what quantum theory is.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Please continue.
    But it makes no difference if the particle is a wave (duality) or is riding a wave (non-locality)
    Yes, this is how I understand the fundamental principles. But I also like the Penrose interpretation which seems very logical to me.

    Penrose interpretation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_interpretation

    This, to me sounds like the DeBroglie-Bohm and Penrose theories are fundamentally compatible.

    When I discovered Bohm I came up with the term UOP (unit of potential) as a quantum value.

    Then I discovered

    Quantum potential

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_potential


    That encouraged me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2023
  20. TheVat Registered Member

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    77
    Per my inquiry about Tuszinsky's work, you directed me...

    And I found the 2013 paper by him. I will quote a bit from there:

    (quote) However, crucial validation or falsification of Orch OR must come from experimentation. This is very challenging since the current “gold standard” in neuroscience is fMRI andi ts spatial resolution is on the 1 mm scale while temporal resolution is on the 1 s scale. This is orders of magnitude
    higher than the 1 nm and 1 ns scales of tubulin’s size/time operational dimensions as studied by molecular biophysics,
    let alone the quantum gravity effects hypothesized by Orch OR to be occurring on the Planck scale of space–time
    geometry (10−35 m; 10−44 s). This huge gap between the current experimental capabilities and the claims made by
    Orch OR poses the greatest challenge to the acceptance of these tenets. (end quote)

    A couple of later papers from his group, discovered in my own lit search, indicated no significant advance in experimental techniques to test the claims of Orch OR. It remains a postulate that includes some pretty dubious claims about a role for gravity - a force that is many orders of magnitude weaker than other relevant forces in the electrochemical activities in neurons.
     
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Pilot wave theory is not “making a come back”. It remains a curiosity that some people tinker with, from time to time.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Who says it is making a comeback? You?

    More to the point: discussion of Bohm's "alternative theory" has absolutely zero relevance in a thread about microtubules.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I think it does. This says so.

    Note The explanation of the Penrose interpretation at the end of the video.
    Here is a later paper.

    Rekindling of de Broglie-Bohm Pilot Wave Theory in the Late Twentieth Century: A Personal Account

    https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2023FoPh...53...24D/abstract#
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2023
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