Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    How do you answer the self-organization of recurring patterns without a mathematixcal function?
    I beg to differ with your conclusion.
    The fact that humans are able to measure, quantify, codify, and symbolize natural processes is proof of an underlying mathematical ordering function to begin with.

    This may seem unrelated to the discussion, but this comedian makes an astute observation that is undeniably true.
    Take a few minutes and be entertained as well as informed.....

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    Go to; 3:40 on the video.


    Maths remain the same over time.
     
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  3. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    There is a difference between Quantum theory and Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The results are the same!
    Aren't all quantum theories Interpretations of observed and modeled phenomena?
    The difference is in the interpretation of particle physics. Dualism or Mind?

    Dualism and Mind
    https://iep.utm.edu/dualism-and-mind/#
     
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  7. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    You are getting confused, there is QT AND interpretation of QT.
    I am not particularly interested in interpretation, last poll Copenhagen was still on top.
     
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  8. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Best find out what QT is first, plenty of work to be done there.
    I know some basics, some formalism of the maths, that's it.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but the official title is the "Copenhagen interpretation".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation
     
  10. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is what you quoted: "I am not particularly interested in interpretation, last poll Copenhagen was still on top"
    To me this sounds as if you are exempting Copenhagen from being an ''interpretation".
     
  12. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Probably best to be precise: there is the mathematical theory of quantum mechanics (or QM for short). This is the maths, at least as currently understood. It is a fundamental theory of physics. Then you have the interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is an effort to explain how the mathematical theory corresponds to the reality that we experience.
    An interpretation is not, per se, a scientific theory. The mathematical theory (QM) is testable, and has been repeatedly tested. But the interpretations can not be. This is because all interpretations have the same maths behind it, have the same experience to compare it against. You can't test one interpretation against another, at least not empirically. It is therefore wrong to call an interpretation a theory.

    So, to be clear, as I understand it there is the "theory", which we refer to as QM. But there are a number of interpretations of QM, such as Copenhagen, many-worlds, de Broglie-Bohm etc.

    Hope that helps.
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But then what does QT stand for?

    What does confuse me is entanglement, a two-way self-reference that seems to defy time and space.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2023
  14. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Quantum Theory, I guess. Otherwise known as Quantum Mechanics. I believe they are synonymous.
    Welcome to the world of QM.
     
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  15. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Sarkus has summed it up well.

    Quantum theory came about to explain phenomena that classical physics could, the first being the UV catastrophe which solved by Max Planck.

    He treated energy like steps, discrete packets called quanta rather than a continuous spectrum.


    Wiki has a good article on it.


    The Einstein ion 1905 (photo electric effect) then work on the atom Rutherford Bohr then all the greats of the 1920s.


    Quantum Theory ( QT) describes how the micro universe behaves and Quantum mechanics lectures in University cover the mathematical structure.


    It works but it is strange and impacted on the view of “reality” in a number of ways.


    What reality actually is, what is really going is where “Interpretation of Quantum theory” comes in and that has not been resolved.


    Some physicists are happy with Copenhagen (42% one poll) others Like Sean Carroll from memory prefer “Many worlds.”


    I do not care particularly because my understanding of the formalism is not sufficient to explore those options.


    The bottom line however is that talking about QT without mathematics is like discussing music without actually playing music, looking at chords, scales, modes, keys- pretty empty.


    The forum I am on rarely discusses the interpretation, when it happens though it is the same discussion essentially that leads nowhere.


    Far more interesting things going on like, Muon G2 measurements and MOND/CDM.
     
  16. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    The history of Quantum Mechanics is very interesting and involves the brightest minds of those generations. It is a truly awe inspiring time of human intellectual development.

    Quantum by Kumar is good, also Jim Al Kalili, A guide for the perplexed and this

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Smashing-Physics-Jon-Butterworth/dp/1472210336
     
  17. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    My references will take a day or two to read but understand you will get absolutely nothing of the underlying structure, formalism or maths which is what matters.

    My music analogy? Can I describe music to you in words? No
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Then why is that useful to me?

    I support the proposition that the Universe is a mathematically ordered physical construct. Recurring patterns.
    No need, I am an ex-musician (7 years on the road as bassplayer with the International IV ).
    I like Jazz, improvisations on a theme.

    A wonderful conscious experience in the art of romantic music may be enjoyed.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is Penrose's QM world.

    Roger Penrose On Why Consciousness Does Not Compute
    The emperor of physics defends his controversial theory of mind.
    BY STEVE PAULSON, April 27, 2017

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    https://nautil.us/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute-236591/#

    According to Penrose QM and Relativity are connected! Hence my selection of tangently related "hard facts"

    This verbatim quote from the video below; "This is deep in physics. The collapse of the wave function, whatever it's got to be, it's got to be consistent with relativity theory, the fact that I think that the wave function is a gravitational effect.
    This means it's to do with General Relativity and therefore has to be consistent with Special Relativity.
    General Relativity is Special Relativity, but with a little bend" (RP)

    youtube.com/watch?v=itLIM38k2r0

    Regardless of human knowledge of consciousness, one fact remains true, consciousness exists in many known biological organisms and must therefore be an as-yet-undiscovered or undefined property of biophysics, an emergent product (quality) of the sum of its parts.

    Another dimension?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
  20. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    It will give you some back ground on QT
     
  21. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    1,036
    It will give you back ground you need IMO. You will not be able to do QM but you will understand some of the terms and players better.
     
  22. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    You would not post stuff like this
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    An update on the apparent MT processing of electrical oscillations in the neural system.
    Collective behavior of oscillating electric dipoles
    Abstract

    Hooks and Comets: The Story of Microtubule Polarity Orientation in the Neuron

    Hooks and Comets: The Story of Microtubule Polarity ... - NCBI
    more.... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33990-y
     
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