Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right, it was the very first link that came up on inquiry. You want more?
    Are you mad? This is what you said.
    First: OFF TOPIC! If you want to have a discussion on the use of the English language post it in proper language sub-forum and stop cluttering my thread.
    Second; What's, wrong with you? You're losing it. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and say "Write4U is decent fellow, Write4U is a decent fellow, Write4U is a decent fellow".
    Trust me, you'll feel better......

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    "Change Is a Process. Change occurs as a process, not as an event"
    Websters
    https://web.uri.edu/cprc/transtheoretical-model-processes-of-change/

    And perhaps this is easier for you to understand what I mean. Just trying to prevent you from suffering a stress heart attack.
    https://www.scripps.org/assets/documents/the_process_of_intervention.pdf

    I am engaged in the process of changing your consciousness. Is that more relevant than "the process of changing money, or socks, or habits, or attitude, or ignorance, or stubborness, or anything that is amenable to change"? change = process

    I think I'm going to try an organize an intervention for you, exchemist. You need it, and I mean this in a positive way.
    Maybe we can get you to make an effort to start a process of attitude change.

    Can we get back to the topic now? Or are you going to pesrsist in being a real "prick" (not cock) and not engage in your process of change?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    When you mangle the English language to try to make your case, then calling out your errors is most definitely on-topic.

    Otherwise, why not just say "2+2=5" and shout down anyone who corrects you as being "off-topic"?
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Because that would be;
    a) Exactly like what you are doing now. If I respond to this , it is YOU who is screaming "OFF TOPIC", OFF TOPIC"!
    b) Attributing lies to me. Something I would never do intentionally as you are doing here.
    c) Off topic. As you keep reminding me after you rudely steer the thread Off Topic.
    d) Incorrect. In all respects as pertains to having a public discussion
    e) Not my style. That kind of behavior you are displaying is not worthy of a science forum. Go to Twitter, then you can join Trump in calling everyone "false".
    f) It is YOU who is unable to stay in context. The subject here is not Linguistics! I'll be happy to engage you in linguistics in the proper sub-forum. Create it and I'll join you.

    The false justifications you use to interrupt and actively attempt to destroy my thread are unworthy of "reasonable" people. Please don't be boorish. It really makes me lose interest in what you have to say altogether, which is too bad.
    I used to be eager to see what you have to say. Now you force me to put you on ignore. I consider it a lost opportunity....

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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In an attempt to salvage some relevancy in this interruption;

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    Microtubule Function in Morphological Differentiation:
    https://www.cell.com/fulltext/S0092-8674(00)80266-4#:~:text=The microtubules

    Back on track.....

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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You are not entitled to mangle the language in order to make your point.
    Change is not a synonym for processing.
    Saying wrong things does not help your case.

    On the other hand, we are allowed to call out your mangling of the language, because that is a direct rebuttal of your flawed argument.

    Again, you can't simply declare that 2+2=5 and not expect people to call you out.

    All you have to do to not have your thread constantly interrupted is to stop saying dumb things that need correcting.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Your right, change is a process. (not processing)....

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    The ten processes of change include consciousness raising, for one.
    That's what this tread is about. Now can we get back ON-TOPIC, please.
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Wait. "My" right what?
    Arm? Foot?
    "My" right is your left.
    Right?

    Don't tread on me!

    A darned good thing this thread is not about linguistics...

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  11. river

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    Anyway , continue Write4U .
     
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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,069
    No, You're off topic.
    I see ex-military. A veiled threat?
    That is the point. Your "correction is meaningless in context of the thread topic. You're just being a nuisance. Start a linquistics thread and we'll see how I do in linguistics as compared to all other posters here. I see so many spelling errors, if I were to call everybody on their misspelled words, no discussion would ever take place. And that is precisely what's happening here.
    I spell a word correctly a hundred time, but the one time I am a little sloppy in my final edit, the misspelled word becomes the NEWS of the day and W4U is officially branded as "illiterate" and "sub-human". This is becoming a clinical obsession with you wannabe science censors.

    Don't be so juvenile. Since when did you become the word police?
    Moreover, you do realize that everytime you call me on a "bad" word and I show that it is a "good" word in the dictionary, it is you who becomes the fool who does not know his English.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for the encouragement, river. It's good to know there are others who are interested in this extraordinary subject of "consciousness" and how it emerges through evolution from the original proto-conscious sensory information processes in the most fundamental life-forms. I don't claim to have the answers, I am only posing the questions, in the hope of finding someone who has actual practical knowledge of the subject(s) under discussion.

    People like Stuart Hameroff, Roger Penrose, Max Tegmark, David Bohm, all heavyweights in their area of expertise, and who have a lifetime experience in theoretical and practical research in the properties and causes of "consciousness", each from their own scientific perspective.
     
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  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I see my 42 words has triggered a 500-word sploodge from the Write4Ubot - a 12:1 ratio - This is the same one who complains about others derailing his thread.

    Well, that's mighty revealing...
    The only one who thinks you're illiterate and sub-human ... is you.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Not until you time and time again complained that I am posting off-topic in response to your miserable mantra;
    Off Topic, Off Topic, blah, blah!....
    No that is a completely false conclusion. I do not think I am illiterate (I used to be a proposal writer), and neither do you. Which make the subversive allegations just more egregious.

    I said you are branding me with these titles and falsely implying that I have no command of the English language, in addition that I do'n have a clue as to what I am talking about.
    As I observed before, your behavior is very Trumpian. And that is a correct observation.

    If you deny this, any other reason for your obnoxious behavior makes it just worse. That would make you an intentional saboteur of scientific discussion, contrary to the goal of this forum to encourage lively discussion of interesting science research.

    I am posting in the spirit of SciForums; you are Tweeting vulgarities, just like Trump.
    But if you think I am going to lie down and roll over, you have a big surprise coming.

    I will answer any off topic slur in my thread until some mod will get tired of your juvenile instigations and destructive behavior. Grow up and learn some manners.

    I am giving you this time to teach you how civilized people communicate. Learn some civility! But until you show improvement., you are on ignore, with arequest you do no longer post in my thread.
    Apparently you have nothing positive to contribute.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No one suggested you were illiterate or subhuman except you.

    As has been pointed out to you, by several moderators now, there is nothing scientific about any of this thread. And certainly nothing discussive about it. You are abusing the forum by using it as a blog.

    Hey there's an idea - let's count the number of times you've been been warned about this thread versus the number of times I've been warned about this thread.

    You've been warned more than ten times as much as I. Sorry, correction: more than a hundred times as much - in fact, more than a thousand times as much as I.

    And the point you are missing - made by several officials now - is that neither do you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    A little back ground on the conscious processing of sensory information and other conscious brain activities, processing our awareness of self. Apparently this is regulated by the;
    Thalamus
    By:Katy McLaughlin, Ph.D. Reviewed by: BD Editors
    Last Updated: June 3, 2020
    Thalamus vs. Hypothalamus

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    The thalamus is found in the centre of the brain
    Thalamus vs. Hypothalamus
    https://biologydictionary.net/thala...utm_campaign=webpush#thalamus-vs-hypothalamus

    Microtubules are involved in these conscious and unconscious processing of sensory information. MT are controlled "variable" polar coils which transport the information to the brain and from the brain to the body, i.e. the information distribution network and the major part of the brain's information processing is handled by the MT.

    For example; Mitosis
    https://biologydictionary.net/interphase/

    In all cases, the role of MT is not only essential for the the neural transmission of sensory information, but also physically process all the raw data "necessary" for the gradual emergence of consciousness, from simple chemical reactions to motivated planning of future activities.

    Is there any reason why a gradual evolution of sensory experience of reality by any biological organism should be exempt other normal evolutionary processes? Somewhere along the line our hominid brains just kept pace with the required awareness of jungle reality, until a mutation introduced a fundamental departure from the common ancestor and came down from the trees and left the forest altogether to occupy the plains.

    This fundamental departure occurred by the fusion of two adjacent ape chromosomes into a single larger human chromosome. All human DNA contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, all other great apes have 24 pr chromosomes in their DNA.
    http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
    And the onset of larger brain growth and reasoning powers. A "learning biological sensory data processing network".

    Question: are we investigating the possible connection between human chromosome 2 and how it affected the demonstrated simultaneous emergence of the "brainy" ape, which came out of the trees.
    Seems like an excellent area of research....

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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    One study of electric activity in brain microtubules. Yet one more piece of the puzzle.
    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations
    Scientific Reports volume 8, Article number: 11899 (2018)

    Abstract

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    Experimental setup to study electrical oscillations of MT bundles. (a) Rat brain MT bundles obtained as reported in the Methods section (DIC x20). (b)Top Panel, DIC image of patch pipette approaching an MT bundle placed over a 2D MT sheet. Bottom Panel, Live immunochemical labeling of MTs by addition of both the anti-α ary antibodies to the preparation shown on Top. Please note that the loose patch connection between the MT bundle and the patch pipette allows backfilling of the pipette with both antibodies. (c)Top Panel, Schematics of the “loose-patch” clamp configuration to obtain electrical properties of MT bundles. The blue curved arrows from the pipette tip indicate leak currents that modify the amplitude of the holding potential applied from the amplifier. Bottom Panel, Schematic of the loose patch circuit applied to the MT surface. Resistances are shown for the pipette (Rpip), patch surface (RMT), seal (Rseal), and CMT represents the capacitive components for the MT surface (see Text for details). The holding potential (Command voltage, Vcmd) and tip potential (Vtip) are different, as expected for the loose patch configuration (See Methods). (d) Time series recording of a patched rat brain MT bundle under symmetrical KCl conditions (both pipette and bath), to which several holding (positive) potentials were applied as indicated in the Figure. Expanded tracings show the increase in amplitude and complexity of the spontaneous oscillations. (e) Time series of a recording held at 7 mV, showing changes in amplitude, spontaneous sudden death, and complete recovery of the oscillatory behavior in the absence of any changes in driving forces. (f)Top panel, Fourier power spectra obtained from (1) unfiltered current tracings from a free-floating pipette before attachment, (2) after attachment to the MT bundle, and (3) same sample after treatment with Taxol (10 μM). Bottom panel, 3D phase-space portraits from spectra shown on Top, indicating limit cycles for the attached sample under control conditions, and much reduced after Taxol treatment. Color code as in Top Panel. Delay time for first and second derivatives adopted for phase portraits was 1 ms.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2/figures/1
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Copied from ; Unconscious Matter.
    Better question is: do anesthetics have an effect on microtubule function and therefore affect consciousness? The answer is yes, but not in the way you are asking the question.

    Microtubule Structure
    Specific anesthetics appear to affect the microtubules in the "level 3" conscious part of the brain but does not affect the microtubules in the unconscious interoceptive parts of the brain which maintain homeostasis.
    Interesting question. Stuart Hameroff (anesthesiologist) explains this in some detail.

    Consciousness Depends on Tubulin Vibrations Inside Neurons, Anesthesia Study Suggests

    Anesthetic alterations of collective terahertz oscillations in tubulin correlate with clinical potency: Implications for anesthetic action and post-operative cognitive dysfunction Craddock TJA, Kurian P, Preto J, Sahu K, Hameroff SR, Klobukowski M, Tuszynski JA.
    5-Sep-2017 1:30 PM EDT, by Center for Consciousness Studies, University of Arizona

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    Change in tubulin collective dipole modes due to the addition of anesthetic and non-anesthetic molecules, with maximum agent-induced change in tubulin normal-mode oscillation frequency at (613 ± 8) THz plotted versus each molecule’s minimum alveolar concentration (MAC).

    Blue: Anesthetic, Green; Anesthetic/convulsant, Pink: Non-anesthetic, - Meth: Methoxyflurane, Halo: Halothane, Iso: Isoflurane, En: Enflurane, DEth: Diethyl ether, Sevo: Sevoflurane, Flur: Flurothyl, Des: esflurane, Nitr:Nitrous oxide, F6:dichlorohexafluorocyclobutane, TFMB: trifluoromethylbenzene).

    For anesthetic and non-anesthetic molecules, alterations in oscillation frequency correlate closely with their anesthetic potency (1/MAC). Non-anesthetics (shown with MAC of 1000%, 10 atmospheres) are predicted with their correct lack of potency, unlike with the Meyer-Overton correlation. Reproduced from Craddock et al., Sci. Rep., 2017.

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    Multi-scale hierarchy with dipole oscillations from neuron (left) downward in size and upward in frequency through microtubule, rows of tubulin, tubulin and London force dipole networks which oscillate in the terahertz regime. Anesthetics may act (lower right) by altering these collective dipole oscillations.
    https://www.newswise.com/articles/c...ions-inside-neurons-anesthesia-study-suggests
    This is outside my knowledge, but IMO, it is more a problem of dynamic variable "patterns" rather than "mass" which give microtubules their specific functional information processing abilities. It is suspected that migrating birds use microtubules in the eye for "navigation", but that would be the acquired ability to "read" the earth's magnetic fields, rather than gravity.
     
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  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    From my post "Top signs you are reading woo":

    4) Webster Rescue. Often when a crank is losing an argument he will resort to redefining words to try to ameliorate a previous error. For example: "The results you have presented show greater than 100% efficiency, which is thermodynamically impossible." "Well, really, what's the definition of efficiency? Can't it mean that . . . " He will then search out various online dictionaries until he finds a definition that is at least not entirely clear, at which point he will claim that that's the definition that is in common use.

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/general-discussion/40906-top-signs-you-reading-woo.html
     
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  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I hope you are not suggesting that I ever made the claim as quoted above. That is a false and misleading example. There are plenty of results that are not subject to thermodynamics.
    On the contrary, I prefer to use Aristotle's example:
    Of course this is not true of all sums. Sometimes a new property may emerge in addition to straight Euclidean mathematics.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Anomaly1 for this link.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834646/
     
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  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Of course not. Are you that dense as to not understand an example?

    In case you are, here is the maxim as applied to you:
    You: Microtubules process information.
    Other: No they don't.
    You: But what does "process" mean, really? Can't it mean X, which is vague and confusing enough that I can claim my original statement is correct? And the term "information" has several definitions, depending on context in psychology, or computer sciences, or cognitive science. Maybe there are several more applicable definitions. How can you tell what is needed? How can anyone tell what things mean? And if no one can tell, doesn't that mean that science itself has issues?


    (And in case you really are that dense, no, that is not an exact quote either.)
     
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