Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. river

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    But it is . Your Philosophy about Mathematics being the essence of the Universe , affects, effects , causes , Everything . Is Involved in Everything . Including Microtubules .
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    OK, microtubules are nano-scale computers that process electro-chemical information (qubits)

    Modelling Microtubules in the Brain as n-qudit Quantum Hopfield Network and Beyond,
    Dayal Pyari Srivastava1 , Vishal Sahni2 , Prem Saran Satsangi

    ABSTRACT
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.00774.pdf#
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In furtherance of the role microtubules play in cognitionitive functions of the mirror neural system, this may further explain the properties of microtubules and their relationship to consciousness in general and the mirror neural system in particular.

    Published: 09 August 2018
    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations
    Scientific Reports volume 8, Article number: 11899 (2018)
    Abstract
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axon#/media/File:Neuron_Cell_Body.png

    Mirror Neurons : The Gateway To Empathy
    Posted on March 15, 2017 by milliesc
    By Olivia Bray, 12W

    What are mirror neurons?

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    https://issciencejournalblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/mirror-neurons-the-gateway-to-empathy/

    Note the electrical signals transported by the axons (microtubules).
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is one of the reasons why I try to find "common denominators" in seemingly disparate scientific observations.

    Consider this article about "Purkinje cells" . It describes the importance and functionality of certain brain cells responsible for sensing time intervals, a very important survival mechanism.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_cell#/media/File:PurkinjeCell.jpg

    Do view the beautiful electron microscopic photographs.

    Clinical significance
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_cell

    But nowhere in this in-depth analysis of Purkinje cells is there any mention of the "microtubules" (except for a passing mention of mitochondria), which are at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular (dendritic) growth and shrinkage, as in Alzheimers disease.

    I find it curious that they spend great attention to the ability of Purkinje cells' ability to regulate their functional potentials, without even addressing the actual mechanism provided by the MT ability to dynamically control its growth and shrinkage, thereby changing its electro-chemical potentials, very similar to the function of a potentiometer .

    David Bohm is the scientist who observed that science has become so compartmentalized that all commonality has been lost.
    This is why I try to find "common denominators" that bind ecerything together in reality rather than the compartmentalization that treats everything as separate phenomena......

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Simple. Because they're not at the heart of all neural cells, nor are they responsible for dendritic growth.
    Yep. I remember back when people thought miasmic humours were the cause of all disease. It was a neat theory that tied everything together simply without requiring a laundry list of viruses, bacteria, prions, parasites and amoebas. It bound everything together! Nowadays doctors compartmentalize and treat all those things as separate phenomena with separate pathogens - which is why we've cured many of them.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    We disagree. Microtubules provide the mitotic spindle for all cell division (especially neural cells) in the first place .
    Even earlier diseases were attributed to demons...?
    Of course, but we are not talking about treating specific diseases and their unique demands. Treat the comment in context of the subject.

    We are talking about the role of MT in the formation, growth and maintenance of the entire neural network, especially those neurons which are responsible for transporting sensory information to and from the brain,....... in order to form a model of "consciousness".

    The Role of the Microtubule Cytoskeleton in Neurodevelopmental Disorders

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    Micaela Lasser,

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    Jessica Tiber and

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    Laura Anne Lowery*
    Department of Biology, Boston College, Chestnut Hill, MA, United States
    FIGURE 1

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    Figure 1. Microtubule (MT) basics. MTs are linear structures comprised of α-tubulin and β-tubulin heterodimers. MTs are extremely dynamic, existing in either a growing state (polymerization) or shrinking state (depolymerization), and can rapidly switch from growth to shrinkage (catastrophe) or from shrinkage to growth (rescue). Addition of new GTP-bound heterodimers occurs at the MT plus end during polymerization. Shortly thereafter, the tubulin subunits hydrolyze their bound GTP to GDP. When the addition of GTP-bound heterodimers slows and the MT lattice is composed of predominantly GDP-tubulin, the protofilaments splay apart and the MT depolymerizes.

    continued......
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    continued .........

    Neurite Formation and Axon Specification
    Axon Elongation and Branching
    continued......
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    continued......

    Dendritogenesis and Synapse Formation
    Scope
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2018.00165/full

    I consider this a wonderful historic compilation of various aspects of MT involvement in the neural network of nearly ALL Eukaryotic organisms, living or extinct. MT are a "common denominator" in the growth and formation of all organic neural networks .
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The role of microtubules in viral infection.

    Microtubule Regulation and Function during Virus Infection
    Mojgan H. Naghavi, Derek Walsh
    Britt A. Glaunsinger, Editor

    ABSTRACT
    https://jvi.asm.org/content/91/16/e00538-17
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. They play a role in cell division. So do chromosomes. So do centromeres. So do kinetochores. So does the nuclear membrane. Eliminate any of those and cell division cannot take place. Heck, without the element phosphorous cell division could not take place.

    So chromosomes are at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular growth.
    So centromeres are at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular growth.
    So kinetichores are at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular growth.
    So the nuclear membrane is at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular growth.
    So phosphorous is at the heart of all neural cells and responsible for cellular growth.

    That title is not held by microtubules. It is held by dozens of elements, compounds and structures within the cell. Your obsession with microtubules has blinded you to the complexity of the process.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No you are not recognizing that all the complexity of all cells are based on the cytoskeleton network which consist of three chemical structures, the microtubules , microfilaments, and intermediate filaments. The "cytoskeleton" is responsible for the growth, shape, coherence, and function of all those individual cells and organelles.

    cy·to·skel·e·ton , noun
    BIOLOGY
    1. a microscopic network of protein filaments and tubules in the cytoplasm of "many" living cells, giving them shape and coherence.
    "Many" does not mean number of cells (there are trillions), but "many types" of cells, including all you mentioned above.

    The cytoskeleton
    The cytoskeleton. Microtubules, microfilaments (actin filaments), and intermediate filaments. Centrioles, centrosomes, flagella and cilia.

    Introduction
    What 3 cell parts are made of microtubules?
    https://www.khanacademy.org/science...-a-cell/tour-of-organelles/a/the-cytoskeleton

    Structures and Functions of Microtubules - Rice University
    What structures are made of microtubules?
    www.ruf.rice.edu

    It's kind of saying a car is mostly made of metal, whereas you keep insisting that a car is mostly made of metal parts. But different model cars have differently shaped parts. What they have in common is not the parts , but the metal.

    All Eukaryotic organisms have a cytoskeleton. Not all Eukaryotic organisms have the same type of cells within that cytoskeleton.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    The fundamental driving structure behind every bit of complexity in the cell is the DNA of the cell, contained in the chromosomes, which is in turn contained in the nucleus. Everything the cell does, every protein it encodes, every structure it creates, comes from the instructions encoded in the cell's DNA. They create the endoplasmic reticulum, the ribosomes - and yes, even the microtubules.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, the DNA is the blueprint of the cell shape and function. But Microtubules are responsible for cell division (mitotic spindle) and the copying of the DNA itself.
    Microtubules function as copy machines.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Let's get back to the beginning.

    CELL DIVISION: BINARY FISSION AND MITOSIS

    The Cell Cycle | Prokaryotic Cell Division | Eukaryotic Cell Division | Mitosis
    Prophase | Metaphase | Anaphase | Telophase | Cytokinesis | Links

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    The cell cycle. Image from Purves et al., Life: The Science of Biology, 4th Edition, by Sinauer Associates (www.sinauer.com) and WH Freeman (www.whfreeman.com), used with permission.

    Prokaryotic Cell Division

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    This animated GIF of binary fission is from: http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlbert/micro101/pages/Chap2.html#two_bact_groups

    https://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookmito.html

    continued.......
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    ....continued....

    Eukaryotic Cell Division

    Mitosis

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    Structure of a eukaryotic chromosome. Image from Purves et al., Life: The Science of Biology, 4th Edition, by Sinauer Associates (www.sinauer.com) and WH Freeman (www.whfreeman.com), used with permission.
    Note the presence of various microtubule organelles used in the process of mitosis.


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    Structure and main features of a spindle apparatus. Image from Purves et al., Life: The Science of Biology, 4th Edition, by Sinauer Associates (www.sinauer.com) and WH Freeman (www.whfreeman.com), used with permission.
    https://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookmito.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. Put a bunch of microtubules in a petri dish and add a bunch of denatured DNA and . . . exactly nothing will happen. No copying. No new proteins. No functioning copy machine.

    Microtubules function like the rollers in a copy machine; they help move the paper. They don't scan the image. They don't transfer the image. They don't fix the image on the final copy. They just help move things along. You can build a copy machine without rollers, just as you can copy DNA without microtubules. They simply help move the process along.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No one is disputing that. Why do you keep repeating something which is not in question.
    No DNA doesn't do a thing except make copies of itself. It's is a long polimer consisting of four chemicals, which can only duplicate itself. How that works seems to be still unknown.

    It is the microtubules which are the machinery responsible for "cell division".

    Common mistakes and misconceptions
    https://www.khanacademy.org/science...dna/a/hs-dna-structure-and-replication-review

    Does that clarify the role of microtubules in mitosis and cytokenesis?

    Cytokinesis

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    Note the green microtubules and kinetochore (centromere)

    Cytokinesis illustration

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    Cilliate undergoing cytokinesis, with the cleavage furrow being clearly visible.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokinesis
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    DNA does not make copies of itself.
    DNA is not a polymer consisting of four chemicals. Nor can it duplicate itself. It needs a lot of help.
    Nope. Read the very thing you posted: "The primary enzyme involved in [duplication] is DNA polymerase which joins nucleotides to synthesize the new complementary strand." Nothing about microtubules.

    Again, microtubules are one part of cell division. They are not "the machinery responsible for cell division." That's like claiming that bearings are the machinery responsible for propelling your car.

    The more I read your posts the more I realize you know jack shit about biology, and are just googling "microtubules" and posting whatever you find to make yourself look intelligent.
     
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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Now that could be easily tested. And would clear up many questions about the role and function of this little self-assembling dynamical machine.
    Provide a proper minimal environment with the fundamental chemistry and create an artificial cell with MT and DNA (RNA) . Will we see "process"? Comes to mind the Urey- Miller experiment.

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    The experiment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment
     
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