Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right, it replicates itself.
    Am I claiming different? Who brought up DNA?

    btw, DNA does not duplicate itself, it replicates itself.

    DNA Structure Activity
    Problem 10: Review of the Features of the Watson-Crick Model for DNA Structure
    Components of DNA

    http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/activities/DNA/10t.html#

    I am not discussing "DNA replication". My claim is that MT are responsible for "cell division" or "mitosis".
    Right, microtubules are NOT involved in DNA replication. Apparently you do not read anything I post.
    Let me refresh;
    https://www.khanacademy.org/science...dna/a/hs-dna-structure-and-replication-review

    Do you have a problem with Kahn Academy?

    This is a thread about microtubules and their various functions throughout the entire organism, in order to see if this can be the foundation to the emergence of self-awareness (consciousness), it is not about DNA. Do you want to discuss DNA? Start a new thread !
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No, it doesn't.
    You said "the DNA is the blueprint of the cell shape and function. But Microtubules are responsible for cell division (mitotic spindle) and the copying of the DNA itself. Microtubules function as copy machines."

    Microtubules do not copy DNA.
    DNA does not duplicate, replicate or copy itself. It needs several different structures to do that, and those structures are not DNA. Nor are they microtubules.
    Apparently you yourself do not read what you post. Again, these are your words:

    "Microtubules are responsible for cell division (mitotic spindle) and the copying of the DNA itself. Microtubules function as copy machines."

    Do you now deny this?
    You do this all the time. You google for something with words that are similar to the words you are using, post the result, then claim that supports your argument. But since you don't understand the basic processes involved, you end up not supporting - indeed, often contradicting - your own argument.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I agree, for now. It seems that MT are not directly related to chromosome (DNA) replication, but are instrumental in cell division itself.

    This shows when the microtubules become active in cell division.

    What happens during mitosis?
    Prophase

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    Figure 1: During prophase, the chromosomes in a cell's nucleus condense to the point that they can be viewed using a light microscope.

    Prophase

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    Figure 2: The mitotic spindle (white) begins to form outside the cell's nucleus.

    Prometaphase

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    Figure 3: (a) Metaphase and (b) Anaphase.
    Anaphase
    Telophase

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    Figure 4: During telophase, two nuclear membranes form around the chromosomes, and the cytoplasm divides.
    Why is mitosis important?
    https://www.nature.com/scitable/top...d-distribution-of-dna-during-mitosis-6524841/
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes! Exactly! They are an important part of cell division. They are far from the only part.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In furtherance of the role of Microtubules in DNA replication.

    Microtubules and DNA Replication
    Publisher Summary
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0074769608617210

    Seems the question is still open......

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    CONSCIOUSNESS - is a PROCESS

    The discussion seems to be about what brand of nuts / bolts and washers are being used and how important each nut or bolt or washer adds to the process

    If I took away some of the parts would the process still run?

    If I added more parts would it improve CONSCIOUSNESS? See new colours, hear more sound frequencies?

    Stop talking about the nuts and bolts and washers. THEY are not CONSCIOUSNESS

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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, the neural network and the nano processors that do the information processing,
    Yes, the neural networks and processors are present in all Eukaryotic organisms, in various degrees of complexity and stages of sensitivity.
    Consider the evolution of the eye! Started as a light sensitive patch and evolved in the keen eysight of eagles and the quantum based navigational organ of migrating birds.
    Yes, different organisms have different abilities, which means their specific evolved conscious experiences are based on those specialized skills. Think about how many animals have specific skills that far outpace humans in sensitivity and range. (Eagles, eyesight; Bloodhounds, smell; Bats, Whales, sonar; Octopuses, shapeshifters; etc, etc) . Insects can see wave frequencies outside human visual range.
    Humans have a mediocre range of sensory skills, but we have enormous information processing powers, which gives us an overall survival advantage over more limited processing abilities in simpler organisms, even as they may possess superior specialized skill sets.
    No one claims that the nuts and bolts ARE conscious. The claim is that the processing of information itself gives rise to a conscious experience. The trick is to find which nuts and bolts are involved in the "conscious experience", a form of Agency, in addition to the autonomous subconscious control functions, the "interoception" used in maintaining homeostasis in all living organisms.

    Anil Seth summed it up; "You don't need to be smart to feel pain (a conscious experience), but you probably do have to be alive"

    Consciousness starts very early in the evolution of motile organisms. The very physical response to external pressures is a form of rudimentary consciousness. This is already observable in single celled organisms.

    I am suggesting that of all the intra-cellular and inter-cellular information distributors in Eukaryotic organisms, the microtubule is the ONLY suitable candidate, both in numbers and in distribution throughout the organisms.

    All other cellular organelles have specific functions, enzyme production, etc. But there is usually only one such specialized organelle per cell, whereas there are hundreds of MT in each cell, working hard in distributing electro-chemical information within each cell and between cells.

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    Microtubules are one of the cytoskeletal filament systems in eukaryotic cells. The microtubule cytoskeleton is involved in the transport of material within cells, carried out by motor proteins that move on the surface of the microtubule.

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    Image of a fibroblast cell containing fluorescently labeled actin (red) and microtubules (green).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Again nuts bolts and washers

    Nuts bolts and washers

    Nuts bolts and washers

    NOT CONSCESSNESS

    Like I am describing COOKING as being "My oven is a metal insulates box on 5 sides. With a door at the front and inside has racks and a various fittings to make it hot. And making it hot makes it able to cook

    Explains nothing about cooking

    Blah nut blah bolt blah washer blah which makes it conscess

    Explains nothing about conscessness

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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Have you ever stood below a high-voltage power-line with a fluorescent tube? If there is high activity in the line, you don't need to plug in your tube. It lights all by itself from the electro-magnetic field surrounding the power line.

    Actually your example of the oven does explain quite a bit.
    The hard fact is that the heat in the oven does cook your steak. Your steak gets cooked in accordance to very specific time/temperature exposure. No other mysterious ingredient is necessary to cook your steak exactly to taste! It is a form of information processing, no?

    This is similar to saying that the MT <==> Brain network does cook the sensory information and produces a very specific "experiential consciousness", dependent on the type and quality of information processed and the brain's ability to experience certain chemically induced emotional responses. i.e "consciousness of self" in relation to environment.

    That IS the hard question.
    But instead of endlessly repeating the hard question, why not follow the trail of hard facts that are available .

    What I am trying to describe are the hard facts that make the MT network a prime candidate as an existent baseline potential .

    Gotta start somewhere. Once a reasonable case has been made that MT MUST BE the network which together with the brain yields a self-aware, self-referential and self-experiential process, a propositional model can be tested. And this process is currently in progress.

    Another know hard fact is that our brain is able to store information as long term memory of patterns. This can be studied once we have established where this memory resides.

    Another suspected potential is contained in the low-voltage quantum field surrounding the MT neural network in the body and brain.

    Example: we have already developed functional computer processors based on the MT structure and its electro-magnetic processing potential of qubit (pattern) processing.
    Once that can be confidently modeled, we can begin to examine the actual processes that occur in the MT network and brain.
    This is what Tegmark advocates. Don't start with the question, we know the question and what it is asking.
    Let's start with some of the answers, which are self-evident, and can be examined in nano scale detail.
    He argues that if the "mind" is an emergent functional self-aware physical (mathematical) process, we should be able to qualify and quantify it, because our current self-awareness must be based on sufficient available constituent parts.

    If we did not possess sufficient potentials for consciousness, we would not be conscious.
    OTOH, the self-evident hard fact that all organisms have a form of self-referential self-awareness (homeostasis, navigation), suggests that the ability for consciousness starts fairly early in the evolution of sensory data gathering and processing, which affords the subject a survival advantage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    No no no CONSCIOUSNESS is not the steak or cake or the cooking

    ***************************************
    BRAIN ----- Lots of information coming in from outside of my body

    From what it have learnt about the information coming it I should call this a hot day
    *****************************”**********= CONSCIOUSNESS

    The sum total of the inputs / previous experience / learnt information / memories translate via chemical and electrical reactions processes into
    * it's a hot day *

    THAT IS CONSCESSNESS

    It does NOT have a place to be found in quantum processes in microtubules because quantum processes don't even have a place

    Quantum processes would be ONE of a gazillion processes interacting with each other

    YES - ***** I am burning my hand because I have put it on a hot stove plate which has not cooled down - I better move it ****** is a localised CONSCESSNESS with a residence, WHILE the burning process continues, but obviously not a permanent home

    Coffee time and get ready for dinner

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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Really????...

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    ***************************************
    Not quite. Better to say the brain recognizes the information and vicariously experiences the emotion of being surrounded by warm air. Recall Descartes' brain in a vat? That brain believes it is walking outside on a warm day.

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    ...... That's about it. Question is where and exactly how does this originate, that allows us to experience visual images, olfactory sensations, auditory cognition, pain, etc.
    i.e. Consciousness.
    I beg to differ with that . The current focus of study is on the synaptic ends of microtubules, and the "pyramidal" cells (which are arrays of microtubules).

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    A human neocortical pyramidal neuron stained via Golgi technique. Notice the apical dendrite extending vertically above the soma and the numerous basal dendrites radiating laterally from the base of the cell body.

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    A reconstruction of a pyramidal cell. Soma and dendrites are labeled in red, axon arbor in blue. (1) Soma, (2) Basal dendrite, (3) Apical dendrite, (4) Axon, (5) Collateral axon.

    Dendritic spines[edit]
    Yessssss!
    And there is only one candidate which is present in such numbers, microtubules. Maybe not a gazillion, but how about a few trillion? (note; there are many, many more microtubules than cells or any other organelle in the body)
    Are you sure you have thought this through?

    The Effects of Painkillers on the Brain and Body
    The chemical opiates are distributed by the MT network.
    Of course it is not the body, but the brain that becomes addicted. All conscious emotional experiences are produced in the brain.

    AFAIK, injury of body parts are processed by the "interoceptive" control function of the brain. Painkillers work primarily on the brain and neural synapses, not your hand.
    https://www.marylandaddictionrecovery.com/effects-of-painkiller-on-the-brain-and-body/
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No, it's not. Microtubules play a role in cell division. They are far from the only part that plays a role.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Read on...... much more there than meets the eye at first glance.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0074769608617210

    Bottom line; there is no other single organelle which is instrumental in the sensory information distribution to and from the brain. Along with neuroscience of the brain, the all-pervasive neural microtubule network is by numerical default alone the only possible candidate for deep study into its inherent and emergent potentials of the self-referential information processing mechanism that must be present for consciousness to emerge.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No, there is not. Microtubules play a role in cell division. They are far from the only part that plays a role. Inhibit them and the cell doesn't divide. Inhibit centromere adhesion and the cell doesn't divide. Inhibit kinetichore formation and the cell doesn't divide. Disrupt chromosomal structure and the cell doesn't divide. Those things are all responsible for neuron growth, no matter what crazy-straw ideas you have.
    You are so full of it. Even what you post does not support your claims.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No one disputes that. These organelles produce "information" which is then transported by microtubules to various destinations, depending on the electro-chemical instruction. If the information cannot travel along the microtubule by itself, the microtubules provides a transport enzymes that will carry the information to its destination.
    It is clear that the kinetochore is a dedicated control mechanism which produces a signal that acts as an auto-inducer to the centromere (microtubular computer) with instruction to begin the mitotic process, at which time the microtubular machinery begin the process of pulling the replicated choromosomes apart.

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    Image of a human cell showing microtubules in green, chromosomes (DNA) in blue, and kinetochores in pink.
    Yes it does, but that's not even important here.

    In trying to debunk the concept of microtubules as biological electro-chemical processors, you have lost focus of the OP question if microtubules, as the heart of the neural network that connects the brain to all parts of the body, contribute to the emergence of self-awareness and consciousness. It is my proposition that no other organelle can provide as much information to the brain as the neural network and that therefore MT are prime candidates for producing an self-referential information process is system which, along with the processing power of the brain itself may have acquired a conscious agency, i.e. knowledge of itself, such as found in the sub-conscious homeostatic control function of "interoception".

    So far, with your vehement protestations, you have not allowed the consideration on this forum to go past the physical biological information processing network machinery (the hard facts), so that we may test the notion of a physically based emergent consciousness (the hard question).

    But of course there is a very active and dedicated army of scientists and technicians which are doing precisely that.
    Google "microtubule" and you'll get hundreds of references to ongoing research and a continuing stream of peer reviewed papers on the properties and functions being published on this remarkable nano-scale processor.

    I have no axe to grind, other than as an exercise in logic and the processing of relational mathematical values by means of mathematical (algebraic) functions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may be of interest;

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    Image courtesy of Thomas Gensch, Forschungszentrum Jülich.

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    Internal structure of the axoneme. Adapted from an image courtesy of Takashi Ishikawa, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich.

    Sea urchin sperm move their tails using a helical motion, as shown here in this animation.

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    Animation courtesy of Sea Urchin Embryologysite.

    http://worms.zoology.wisc.edu/dd2/echino/fert/sperm/sperm.html

     
  21. river

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    Sure , but not great .

    Yes

    In This Universe , Intelligence.... Life.... Galaxies and Quasars , Exist Together . Without Life Write4U , " networks , processors " would not Exist .
     
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  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. Most substances within the cell are transported by diffusion. Some proteins are transported actively; the endoplasmic reticulum does that.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Diffusion is a passive function and has nothing to do with "delivering information" to specific areas in the body and brain via the microtubule network.
    These proteins are not distributed via "diffusion". They are distributed by MT to specific sites where these proteins are needed.

    A novel direct interaction of endoplasmic reticulum with microtubules.
    D R Klopfenstein, F Kappeler, and H P Hauri
    Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer


    This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
    Abstract
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1170943/
     
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