Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Review|Evolution|August 22 2011
    The evolution of the cytoskeleton
    https://doi.org/10.1083/jcb.201102065
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    https://rupress.org/jcb/article/194/4/513/54654/The-evolution-of-the-cytoskeletonThe-evolution-of
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Microtubules, in vitro
    Dan L. Sackett, ... Naomi S. Morrissette, in Methods in Cell Biology, 2010

    VII Summary
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/tubulin#
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Update;
    JANUARY 16, 2014

    Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' corroborates theory of consciousness
    ..........
    .....
    https://phys.org/news/2014-01-discovery-quantum-vibrations-microtubules-corroborates.html

     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Octopus Arms Have Minds of Their Own
    By: Andrea Michelson , January 14, 2020
    https://www.discovery.com/science/Octopus-arms

    Analysis of Microtubules in Isolated Axoplasm from the Squid Giant Axon

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    Figure 1
    Flow chart for preparation of axoplasms.




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    Figure 2
    Dissection of giant axons. A diagram illustrating the position of the squid giant axons after removal of the internal organs and pen. The squid mantle is roughly conical after the head and tentacles are removed. At that point, the mantle is cut along the dorsal midline to create flat sheet of muscle. The viscera can then be removed along with clear siff pen located in the center of the ventral side of the mantle, between the two largest giant axons. All axons exist in pairs on the right and left side of the midline. The largest diameter axons extend the paralleling the midline and are the longest axons. The other smaller axons are not used because they are not typically large enough to extrude. The two largest giant axons are dissected free from the surrounding muscle and threads are tied at the distal (green) and proximal ends (red, near the cell bodies in the stellate ganglion).

    Analysis of Axoplasmic Microtubule Dynamics
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460999/

    I find it remarkable that an organism which is a mollusk and genetically separated from mammals by some 300 milion years has independently developed a very sophisticated consciousness. There is one common denominator that these distantly related organisms share and that is an extraordinary number of microtubules in their neural networks.

    Ten Curious Facts About Octopuses
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-curious-facts-about-octopuses-7625828/

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/invertebrates/group/octopus-facts/

    Is this due to the fact that Octopuses have an extraordinary relative number of microtubules when compared to mammals such as dogs, cats, etc.

    Does the number of specialized "thought" MT determine consciousness, intelligenc?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This excellent lecture explains the influence quantum mechanics may play in the development of senses and orientation to say the earth's magnetic fields.

     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Why don't you check out ORCH OR and learn something about the mind.
     
  11. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Been there, done that, a long time ago, as the saying goes.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't learn much, did we?
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Not until you start talking about what a neural network is, what it consists of, and how it works as a self-referential system

    Consciousness is an emergent property :
    https://sciencetrends.com/what-are-emergent-properties-definition-and-examples/
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed.
     
  15. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Not from that theory.
     
  16. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    That's absurd. I don't need to talk about Neural Networks to have a discussion about my post. Go find a Neural Networks Forum and have fun.
    Saying: Consciousness is an Emergent Property is a Speculation, like every thing with regard to Conscious Experience. Could be true, but it is not a principle of Science. In any case, Explaining how Consciousness is an Emergent Property is the problem.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, are you suggesting that consciousness of the "Inter Mind" (?) doesn't have anything to do with neural networks?
    And where would the emergent property originate if not from the neural network? Seems to me you are following a path less traveled, right to a place where the buses don't run.

    I have posited Hameroff, a practicing anesthesiologist who knows how to render a person unconscious and who definitively identifies parts of the neural network in the brain as the seat (originating area) of consciousness.
    Are you suggesting this anesthesiologist doesn't know what part of the brain he is rendering unconscious or if he is rendering anything unconscious? Ask Anil Seth instead of dismissing him as a charlatan. If you know more than he does, prove it and posit your hypothesis. Dismissing other people's work does not strengthen your argument in the least.

    Your problem is that you are not trying to find "common denominators" in current knowledge of the brain, which is really still in it's infancy.

    So, rather than fracturing and rejecting every individual specialized area of consciousness knowledge, try to find those facts which reinforce a certain perspective and "build" a comprehensive hypothesis.

    As Tegmark says, "don't start with the hard question, start with hard facts" and the answers will emerge naturally, as they do with all science ......

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently you don't read anything I say.
    I have done some research in the matter of consciousness. About 91 pages worth. You may want to familiarize yourself with some of the "hard facts" contained in those papers.

    Is consciousness to be found in (quantum processes) in microtubules?
    Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 7, 2018.

    p.s. (brackets) added to keep the subject more generalized.
     
  19. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    I do start with the Hard Problem. This is a Top Down reverse Engineering endeavor. No theory that I have read wants to think about the Conscious Experience itself. They always Dodge the issue by talking about Neural Activity, Neural Nets, Emergence, etc.. Tell me the answer to the simplest question, Given:

    1) Neural Activity happens in the Brain.
    2) "Something" happens during the Neural Activity or is produced by the Neural Activity.
    3) A Conscious Experience happens in the Mind.

    What is that "Something" that happens in step 2 that can Logically take you from 1 to 3?

    What does Seth, Hameroff, or Tegmark put in step 2.

    I have read their works and have watched many interviews with them and must have missed their answers to this.
    If you know what they are saying then please tell me once and for all what their answers would be.
     
  20. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    You are commenting on a reply to DaveC426913. Are you the same person?
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Much too limited in concept. Expand your horizon. The transport of electro-chemical information happens throughout the entire neural network in the body. That is all part of the Neural Network. Electro-chemical activity is being recorded and physically experienced by the entire physical organism.
    Yes, physical electro-chemical information distribution and reactions happen throughout the entire neural network and cytoskeleton of the organism
    The Brain collects all the experiential activity within the body and compares it with memory and selects if the information gets distributed to the level II part of the brain which "controls" sub-conscious homeostasis, or to the experiential comparative level III part (memory) of the brain which consciously decides on a "fight or flight" response, depending on the nature of the information.
    A comparative electro-chemical response which is experienced and weighed by the entire organism's neural network and brain.

    This is a pocket version of analyzing "hard facts" of what is occurring throughout the microtubule processing network inside the body while "processing external and internal information", instead of asking "what is that something" that is doing the processing.
    We know what is doing the processing and allowing for memory storage.

    Microtubules are a "common denominator"of all Eukaryotic living organisms and it is a known "hard fact" that they are responsible for the transport and distribution of electro-chemical information that keeps the organism alive.


    We know what and where the processing happens. When adding all the macro-quantum events throughout the body an experience greater than the sum of its individual parts emerges and is experienced as "consciousness".

    Migrating birds are able to navigate by following magnetic fields while also observing natural terrain, a very sophisticated combination necessary for navigating extremely long distances.

    I have cited examples of Octopuses who have 8 relatively independently acting brains in their arms, as well as a central control brain. This creature is very "conscious" of it's surroundings and is capable of solving complex problems including possessing the ability of physical "shape shifting" to blend in with its surroundings!

    At the other end of the spectrum is the Venus Flytrap, a stationary predatory plant which responds when pray triggers specific "sensory" cilia (MT), causing an electro-chemical response of hydraulically closing the leaves, trapping the prey and stimulating the production of digestive enzymes.

    A slime mold is able to solve a maze by laying down chemical "do not enter" signs, to avoid duplicate exploration of closed paths.

    IMO all these pro-active and reactive behaviors add up to degrees of experiential consciousness in the organism allowing for relatively specialized intelligent survival behaviors.

    What sets the human brain apart is an accidental beneficial mutation in the human DNA, which created an enormous leap in information processing abilities and caused the split of humans from our ancestral hominids.

    Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes, Alec MacAndrew

    Introduction

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    ..........more

    Conclusion
    http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

    Note that only humans possess 23 chromosomes as compared to 24 in all other hominids.
    Clearly, this has to be the evolutionary jump where humans split from the original hominid family.


    These are hard facts. Lets begin with examining the actual results of these known properties which all seem to have contributed to the extraordinary development of conscious intelligence in humans as well as in many other high functioning living organisms.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  22. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    All the things you say may be true, but I see no Explanation for an actual Conscious Experience. Remember, I am interested in the Experience, Perception, or Qualia of things like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste. You have said that the Microtubules are responsible for Consciousness, but you have not provided the Logical Explanatory Reasoning that shows how Microtubule operation leads to any actual Conscious Sensory Experience. When you talk about Microtubules you are just talking about an aspect of Neural Activity because Microtubules are in the Neurons. You are talking about the Neural Correlates of Conscious Sensory Experience. You are not talking about Conscious Sensory Experience itself. Consider the Redness, Standard A Toneness, and Salty Tasteness as the end product of all the Neural Processing.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    OK, we have begun with some apparent hard facts! IMO, that's better than starting with an unanswered question...

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    Are qualia not the experiencing of expressed wavelengths in some form? (How do migrating birds use the earth's magnetic fields if not as wave frequencies?)
    AFAIK, sets of wave length form dynamic fields, which may be experienced. Almost all electro-chemical networks have an associated dynamic fields. If I stand underneath a High Voltage tower with a florescent tube, the tube will light up, IOW, the bulb experiences an electro-chemical qualia!

    Electromagnetic Field Lights Up Field of Florescent Tubes
    (Note: I am not saying that anything lights up inside the brain, but wave frequencies are dynamical physics.) https://www.industrytap.com/floresc...-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
    Of course not. It is the problem we are examining. But we do have some hard facts about microtubules which logically point to the major role they may play in the emergence of consciousness.

    For one, MT are bio-chemical dynamical self organizing nano scale bipolar (electromagnetic/chemical) coils which have been shown to play the major role in biological electro-chemical information processing and distribution. And they are present by the trillions in the bodies of all Eukaryotic organisms!

    Electromagnetic coil


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    The magnetic field lines (green) of a current-carrying loop of wire pass through the center of the loop, concentrating the field there

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    (Note the resemblance to MT)


    I for one am very interested in what Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose have to say about the potential role MT may play in the processing of sensory information. They and are the only ones with a logical hypothesis of ORCH OR, using a macro quantum function.

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    ORCH OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction)

    I have already directed your attention to the site that's dedicated to the study and known role MT play in the "processing of information". I can't discuss it here any further.

    These are just a random selection of facts which set me on this extrapolation. I am not suggesting this is how it works, but offering some speculations based on known "hard facts".

    At least it is an analytical start instead of the endlessly repeating "hard question", which no one seems to be able to work "downwards from qualia". Maybe we need to work upward from macro quantum toward qualia....

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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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