Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Write4U · Dec 21, 2020

Steve Klinko said: ↑

I don't study what to me are the more vague Experiences like Empathy.
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Clearly you do not know much about empathy, the ability to experience someone else's electro-chemical response by mere observation of behavior.

Talk about "qualia" . Empathy is the ultimate expression of commonly shared "qualia". I really urge you to do some research in this astounding ability for shared experience.

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Steve Klinko · Dec 21, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

OK, we have begun with some apparent hard facts! IMO, that's better than starting with an unanswered question...
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Are qualia not the experiencing of expressed wavelengths in some form? (How do migrating birds use the earth's magnetic fields if not as wave frequencies?)
AFAIK, sets of wave length form dynamic fields, which may be experienced. Almost all electro-chemical networks have an associated dynamic fields. If I stand underneath a High Voltage tower with a florescent tube, the tube will light up, IOW, the bulb experiences an electro-chemical qualia!

Electromagnetic Field Lights Up Field of Florescent Tubes
(Note: I am not saying that anything lights up inside the brain, but wave frequencies are dynamical physics.) https://www.industrytap.com/floresc...-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
Of course not. It is the problem we are examining. But we do have some hard facts about microtubules which logically point to the major role they may play in the emergence of consciousness.

For one, MT are bio-chemical dynamical self organizing nano scale bipolar (electromagnetic/chemical) coils which have been shown to play the major role in biological electro-chemical information processing and distribution. And they are present by the trillions in the bodies of all Eukaryotic organisms!

Electromagnetic coil

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The magnetic field lines (green) of a current-carrying loop of wire pass through the center of the loop, concentrating the field there

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(Note the resemblance to MT)

I for one am very interested in what Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose have to say about the potential role MT may play in the processing of sensory information. They and are the only ones with a logical hypothesis of ORCH OR, using a macro quantum function.

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ORCH OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction)

I have already directed your attention to the site that's dedicated to the study and known role MT play in the "processing of information". I can't discuss it here any further.

These are just a random selection of facts which set me on this extrapolation. I am not suggesting this is how it works, but offering some speculations based on known "hard facts".

At least it is an analytical start instead of the endlessly repeating "hard question", which no one seems to be able to work "downwards from qualia". Maybe we need to work upward from macro quantum toward qualia....
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Qualia are not the Experiencing of any Wavelengths of anything. Qualia are way down the chain of Processing after the Retina converts the Electromagnetic Wavelength phenomenon into a Visual Neural Signal phenomenon that travels to the Visual Cortex for more Processing.. You can rub your Eye and manually induce Visual Neural Signals that you experience as Light Qualia. The Experience of the Qualia is the final stage in the Processing. The Qualia Experience is related to Neural Activity. The Electromagnetic Light doesn't Look Like anything. This is why your Brain/Mind has to create the Surrogate of Redness in your Mind. But in it's essence the Redness has nothing to do with Wavelength of anything.

You have no idea what the Birds are Experiencing when they follow the magnetic field of the Earth.
I'm sure you don't think the fluorescent bulb Experiences anything.

Bottom Up analysis is a good approach but is the only approach that has ever been tried. Because we can measure all kinds of things in the Brain it gives Scientists something to do. But the Top Down analysis has been highly neglected because, let's face it, nobody really can come up with an approach. To even begin a Top Down approach we would need to have some Clue about the starting point, which is the Redness itself, the Toneness itself, the Saltiness itself, etc.. These Conscious Phenomena are things that exist in our Minds which are in the Manifest Universe. These are, for a lack of any better way to say it, Conscious Phenomena and they are only Experienced in a Conscious Mind. There is no Instrumentation that can measure, Redness, Toneness, or Saltiness. Instrumentation can only measure the Neural Correlates of these things.

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Steve Klinko · Dec 21, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

Clearly you do not know much about empathy, the ability to experience someone else's electro-chemical response by mere observation of behavior.

Talk about "qualia" . Empathy is the ultimate expression of commonly shared "qualia". I really urge you to do some research in this astounding ability for shared experience.
Click to expand...

It is interesting, but I will continue to stay focused on the goal of understanding more well defined things like Conscious Sensory Experience. To me Redness, Standard A Toneness, and Salty Tasteness are very well defined Phenomenon that I can identify, as Phenomena that only Exist in the Mind. They are not Explainable with words, but rather they must be Experienced. This is because they are not Physical things in the Physical world, but rather they are Experiences. Experiences must be recognized as a whole new kind of Phenomena by Science. Experiences will probably not be measurable by Physical Instrumentation that we can invent with Physical World materials. It is a Scientific Dilemma and I don't have the answer, but at least I can understand the Problem. But the important thing I want to emphasize is that to ignore the Qualia is to ignore the real Problem.

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Write4U · Dec 21, 2020

Steve Klinko said: ↑

But the important thing I want to emphasize is that to ignore the Qualia is to ignore the real Problem.
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OK, then you just stay on that course and see where you end up.

Qualia

Individual instances of subjective, conscious experience

In philosophy and certain models of psychology, qualia are defined as individual instances of subjective, conscious experience. The term qualia derives from the Latin neuter plural form (qualia) of the Latin adjective quālis meaning "of what sort" or "of what kind" in a specific instance, such as "what it is like to taste a specific apple, this particular apple now".
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en.wikipedia.org

See you on the other side, maybe.......
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Write4U · Dec 21, 2020

Steve Klinko said: ↑

It is interesting, but I will continue to stay focused on the goal of understanding well defined things like Conscious Sensory Experience.
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You understand the well defined thing like Conscious Sensory Experience?

The time of a conscious sensory experience and mind-brain theories

Libet et al. and Popper & Eccles have the view that some single hypothesis about the time of a conscious sensory experience has certain consequences for various mind-brain theories. The view involves a fundamental inconsistency, which may cast doubt on experimental findings, and two hypotheses rather than one.
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The preferable hypothesis is doubtful. The preferable hypothesis has been thought to have mind-brain consequences principally because it has not been distinguished from a different hypothesis. The preferable hypothesis in fact does not have the supposed mind-brain consequences. The different hypothesis, which in fact does have the given consequences, is entirely unacceptable
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022519384800181#

Well defined.................?
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Psychophysics: Measuring Sensory Experience

While philosophical analyses of consciousness began with Descartes, the scientific study of consciousness was delayed until the beginning of the 19th century and the emergence of scientific, as opposed to philosophical, psychology. The first problem for the new psychology was the nature of sensory experience -- that is, conscious sensory experience. In this way, scientific psychology began, quite expressly, as the scientific study of conscious experience.
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The initial emphasis on sensation -- as opposed to memory or thinking or some other aspect of consciousness -- was quite deliberate, because the earliest psychologists understood that, in order to be scientific, they had to be able to tie conscious experience, which is inherently subjective, to the objective world of physical events. And so they began by exploring the relations between subjective sensory experiences -- what the philosophers call qualia -- and the objective physical stimuli that gave rise to them -- hence, the new field of psychophysics.
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Organization of the Sensory Modalities

With respect to qualia, we can distinguish, along with Kant, qualitatively different mental states of knowing, feeling, and desiring. To paraphrase Nagel, there is something it is like to know something, and that "something" is different from what it is like to feel or desire something. The basic (and, if Kant is right, irreducible) mental faculties of knowledge, feeling, and desire are associated with distinct qualitative experiences of knowing, feeling, and desiring. If Searle is right, each of these superordinate qualia is associated with a different form of intentionality, but there's obviously more to qualia than that.
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Even within the faculty of knowing,
1. there's something it's like to see red, which is different from what it is like to see green; and
2. there's something it's like to hear a flute, which is different from what it is like to hear an oboe.
And, for that matter,
3. there's something it's like to see something, which is different from what it is like to hear something.
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So, to begin with, how do differences arise in modality of sensation -- what's the difference between seeing something and hearing something?
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Exteroception is the sensation of events occurring outside the body, and includes three subcategories.

Proprioception concerns sensations that arise from within the body itself, particularly its motion and its position in space.

In the distance senses there is no direct contact between the distal stimulus and the sense organ; rather, radiated energy travels a distance between the distal stimulus and the receptor organ. The distance senses include:
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Vision (seeing), in which light waves stimulate the rods and cones in the retina of the eye;
Audition (hearing), in which sound waves stimulate hair cells on the basilar membrane of the cochlea of the inner ear.

In equilibrium, also known as the vestibular sense, gravitational force pulls on crystals suspended in liquid in the semicircular canals and vestibular sac of the inner ear; these crystals then fall on hair cells arranged in various orientations.
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Which involves MT. See Auditory Pathway below.

Interoception

For Sherrington, interoception consisted of mechanisms responsible for homeostatic regulation, such as hunger (which is sensitive to blood sugar levels) and thirst (which is sensitive to levels of cell fluids. Technically, these count as sensory mechanisms, because they convert physical stimuli into neural impulses that are processed by the nervous system to generate response outputs (like eating and drinking).
But because they do not give rise to conscious sensations (you feel hungry or thirsty, but you don't feel your blood-sugar or cell-fluid levels), they don't interest us here.
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Notice, in passing, that many of the nine senses are variations on two different mechanisms.

In vision, gustation, olfaction, and (probably) the temperature sense, the proximal stimulus is a chemical reaction of some kind.
In audition, the tactile sense, kinesthesis, and equilibrium, the proximal stimulus is mechanical in nature.
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https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~jfkihlstrom/ConsciousnessWeb/Introspection/PsychphysicsSupplement.htm

Write4U · Dec 21, 2020

But this is important:
Auditory pathway[edit]

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Section through the spiral organ of Corti, magnified. The stereocilia are the "hairs" sticking out of the tops of the inner and outer hair cells.

As acoustic sensors in mammals, stereocilia are lined up in the organ of Corti within the cochlea of the inner ear. In hearing, stereocilia transform the mechanical energy of sound waves into electrical signals for the hair cells, which ultimately leads to an excitation of the auditory nerve. Stereocilia are composed of cytoplasm with embedded bundles of cross-linked actin filaments. The actin filaments anchor to the terminal web and the top of the cell membrane and are arranged in grade of height.[2]
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As sound waves propagate in the cochlea, the movement of endolymph fluid bends the stereocilia. If the direction of movement is towards the taller stereocilia, tension develops in the tip links, mechanically opening transduction channels near the tips. Cations from the endolymph flow into the cell, depolarizing the hair cell and triggering the release of neurotransmitters to nearby nerves, which send an electrical signal to the central nervous system.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)

Write4U · Dec 21, 2020

An interesting article on "stereocilia"

In the inner ear, stereocilia are the mechanosensing organelles of hair cells, which respond to fluid motion in numerous types of animals for various functions, including hearing and balance. They are about 10–50 micrometers in length and share some similar features of microvilli.[1] The hair cells turn the fluid pressure and other mechanical stimuli into electric stimuli via the many microvilli that make up stereocilia rods.[2] Stereocilia exist in the auditory and vestibular systems.
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Mechanoelectrical transduction[edit]

In the cochlea, a shearing movement between the tectorial membrane and the basilar membrane deflects the stereocilia, affecting the tension on the tip-link filaments, which then open and close the non-specific ion channels.[2] When tension increases, the flow of ions across the membrane into the hair cell rises as well. Such influx of ions causes a depolarization of the cell, resulting in an electrical potential that ultimately leads to a signal for the auditory nerve and the brain.
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The identity of the mechanosensitive channels in the stereocilia is still unknown.......more
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)

one guess......microtubules?

Write4U · Dec 24, 2020

Q-reeus said: ↑

You assert there are numerous examples of unguided self-assembly (in biological systems). The chances of what you see in the following accurate animations being the outcome of blind chemical interactions are to me obviously vanishingly small to the point of being impossible:
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Oh, have been posting Drew Berry since June 2015 as examples of "unseen biology" and how mechanical the entire process is.

Here is the list of my posts:
http://sciforums.com/threads/can-human-dna-change.148159/#post-3303244
http://sciforums.com/threads/have-you-existed-before.159773/page-7#post-3491783
http://sciforums.com/threads/have-you-existed-before.159773/page-7#post-3491860
http://sciforums.com/threads/what-is-free-will.161544/page-14#post-3569612
http://sciforums.com/threads/realit...matics-is-reality.161386/page-27#post-3584535
http://sciforums.com/threads/is-con...s-in-microtubules.161187/page-17#post-3604822

But this one is a perfect example of "unguided" self-assembly.
http://sciforums.com/threads/is-con...s-in-microtubules.161187/page-58#post-3636305

and for good measure:

Better watch them quick before James transfers this to the microtubule thread.
That's my bane of posting about such fundamental biological properties and processes that it is impossible to avoid posting about them in a variety of subforums about biological chemistry .

Write4U · Dec 24, 2020

paddoboy said: ↑

you stand/sit there claiming Abiogenesis is impossible [is that right?]
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No he doesn't. I believe he admits to Abiogenesis.

It's just that he proposes a Living Intelligence entity as the motivated causality of Abiogenesis
(Kinda like an architect building a house from individual bricks.) Isn't that precious......
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p.s. Q-reeus ; Penrose does not propose an Intelligent Designer.

From the link; "THE GEOMETRIC NATURE OF THE SPECIALNESS" (Penrose)
Sounds kinda mathematical to me.....
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Write4U · Dec 24, 2020

Continued.....

Write4U · Dec 24, 2020

And an wonderful 3 part lecture by Ron Vale:
Ron Vale #1

#2

#3

Write4U · Dec 26, 2020

This may be of interest.

UTSA professor develops open-access software for cytoskeleton
by University of Texas at San Antonio

The Java Application for Cytoskeleton Filament Characterization (JACFC) provides comprehensive computer models and high-performance algorithms to elucidate the molecular mechanisms modulating the electrical signal propagation, stability and bundle formation of microtubules and F-actin filaments under different molecular and environmental conditions.
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Pathological conditions like Alzheimer's were historically studied at the larger scale brain system, based on losing the ability to communicate between neurons.
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"This happens because in principle the neuron is losing the ability to process information and then can't transmit it to the other neurons," Marucho said. "The application [of JACFC] is to find the origin of this."
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"In the past, scientists only looked at the mechanical properties of this network, not electrical properties," Marucho said. "The mechanical properties may generate the shape of the neuron and may also be a stick where they can move particles from one compartment to another. But now we are saying they are also very good conductors."
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The JACFC will help scientists understand how a neuron processes information in order to perform biological functions. This will help them understand how a neurological disease affects information processing.......more
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https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-11-utsa-professor-open-access-software-cytoskeleton.html

river · Dec 27, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

This may be of interest.

UTSA professor develops open-access software for cytoskeleton
by University of Texas at San Antonio
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-11-utsa-professor-open-access-software-cytoskeleton.html

molecular mechanisms modulating the electrical signal propagation, stability and bundle formation of microtubules and F-actin filaments under different molecular and environmental conditions.
neurons," Marucho said. "The application [of JACFC] is to find the origin of this."

"In the past, scientists only looked at the mechanical properties of this network, not electrical properties," Marucho said. "The mechanical properties may generate the shape of the neuron and may also be a stick where they can move particles from one compartment to another. But now we are saying they are also very good conductors."
The JACFC will help scientists understand how a neuron processes information in order to perform biological functions. This will help them understand how a neurological disease affects information processing.......more
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It should be .

Next should be , how does this manifest Living Beings in any Form ?

Write4U · Dec 29, 2020

river said: ↑

It should be .

Next should be , how does this manifest Living Beings in any Form ?
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Microtubules are self-assembling dynamical complex structures which are responsible for neural information processing, mitosis, and motility, THREE of the requirements of living organisms (neural networks, cell division, and movement).

IOW, MT are one of the transitional complex compound chemical structures leading to abiogenesis, the gradual chemical evolution from inanimate to animate forms.

river · Dec 30, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

Microtubules are self-assembling dynamical complex structures which are responsible for neural information processing, mitosis, and motility, THREE of the requirements of living organisms (neural networks, cell division, and movement).

IOW, MT are one of the transitional complex compound chemical structures leading to abiogenesis, the gradual chemical evolution from inanimate to animate forms.
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Highlighted

No surprise really . The chemistry comes together to release life . In the very cold as well . Glaciers have life within them as well .

Write4U · Dec 31, 2020

This is a new perspective

river said: ↑

Highlighted
No surprise really . The chemistry comes together to release life . In the very cold as well . Glaciers have life within them as well .
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That is nicely put. Bio-chemistry has the "potential" for life, everywhere!

Living bio-chemistry can be found everywhere on earth, from;

Extremophiles

An extremophile (from Latin extremus meaning "extreme" and Greek philiā (φιλία) meaning "love") is an organism with optimal growth in environmental conditions considered extreme in that it is challenging for a carbon-based life form, such as all known life on Earth, to survive.[1]
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These organisms are dominants in the evolutionary history of the planet. Dating back to more than 40 million years ago, extremophiles have continued to thrive in the most extreme conditions naming them one of the most abundant lifeforms. [2]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophile

To Tardigrades

Tardigrades (/ˈtɑːrdɪɡreɪd/), known colloquially as water bears or moss piglets,[1][2][3][4] are a phylum of eight-legged segmented micro-animals.[1][5] They were first described by the German zoologist Johann August Ephraim Goeze in 1773, who called them little water bears. In 1777, the Italian biologist Lazzaro Spallanzani named them Tardigrada /tɑːrˈdɪɡrədə/, which means "slow steppers".[6]
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Milnesium tardigradum, a eutardigrade

They have been found everywhere in Earth's biosphere, from mountaintops to the deep sea and mud volcanoes,[7] and from tropical rainforests to the Antarctic.[8] Tardigrades are among the most resilient animals known,[9][10] with individual species able to survive extreme conditions—such as exposure to extreme temperatures, extreme pressures (both high and low), air deprivation, radiation, dehydration, and starvation—that would quickly kill most other known forms of life.[11]
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Tardigrades have survived exposure to outer space.[12][13] There are about 1,300 known species[14] in the phylum Tardigrada, a part of the superphylum Ecdysozoa consisting of animals that grow by ecdysis such as arthropods and nematodes. The earliest known true members of the group are known from Cretaceous amber in North America, but are essentially modern forms, and therefore likely have a significantly earlier origin, as they diverged from their closest relatives in the Cambrian, over 500 million years ago.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

To Deep-Earth worms

Life in deep Earth totals 15 to 23 billion tons of carbon—hundreds of times more than humans, by Deep Carbon Observatory

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A nematode (eukaryote) in a biofilm of microorganisms. This unidentified nematode (Poikilolaimus sp.) from Kopanang gold mine in South Africa, lives 1.4 km below the surface. Credit: Gaetan Borgonie, Extreme Life Isyensya, Belgium

Barely living "zombie" bacteria and other forms of life constitute an immense amount of carbon deep within Earth's subsurface—245 to 385 times greater than the carbon mass of all humans on the surface, according to scientists nearing the end of a 10-year international collaboration to reveal Earth's innermost secrets.
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https://phys.org/news/2018-12-life-deep-earth-totals-billion.html#:

Life is abundant on earth and IMO, that indicates life is a relatively common bio-chemical occurrence, with a wide range of constituent parts and environments, and which does not require a "special" causality.

However, as living organisms require energy, the organisms which the most efficient energy use and conversion will be favored by "natural selection" and it is to be expected that the evolution of "sensory organs" and the evolving ability to use this to survival advantage, should eventually lead to greater sensitivity to sensory stimulation and ultimately lead to "conscious awareness" of the environment and a dedicated processing center such as a brain.

But that is not the only form of conscious intelligence. A slime-mold (multi-nucleic single celled organism) has no brain, but does have a cellular sense of awareness and memory of its environment and is an effective food (energy) gatherer. In fact it is one of the most successful organisms on earth, capable of some great logical behaviors.

But in context of this thread;
Mitosis in the cellular slime mold Polysphondylium violaceum

Abstract

Myxamebas of Polysphondylium violaceum were grown in liquid medium and processed for electron microscopy. Mitosis is characterized by a persistent nuclear envelope, ring-shaped extranuclear spindle pole bodies (SPBs), a central spindle spatially separated from the chromosomal microtubules, well-differentiated kinetochores, and dispersion of the nucleoli.
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SPBs originate from the division, during prophase, of an electron-opaque body associated with the interphase nucleus. The nuclear nevelope becomes fenestrated in their vicinity, allowing the build-up of the intranuclear, central spindle and chromosomal microtubules as the SPBs migrate to opposite poles.
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At metaphase the chromosomes are in amphitelic orientation, each sister chromatid being directly connected to the corresponding SPB by a single microtubule.
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During ana- and telophase the central spindle elongates, the daughter chromosomes approach the SPBs, and the nucleus constricts in the equatorial region. The cytoplasm cleaves by furrowing in late telophase, which is in other respects characterized by a re- establishment of the interphase condition. Spindle elongation and poleward movement of chromosomes are discussed in relation to hypotheses of the mechanism of mitosis.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2109490/

Write4U · Dec 31, 2020

Are Slime Molds conscious?

And this video suggests that the slime mold's intelligence resides in the cytoskeleton, specifically that motile part that forms the pseudo-podia.

MICROTUBULES IN INTERPHASE AND MITOSIS OF CELLULAR SLIME MOLDS Urs-Peter Roos and Bruno Guhl University of Zurich, Institute of Plant Biology, Zollikerstrasse 107, CH-8008 Zurich switzerland

INTRODUCTION

Cellular slime molds are mycetozoan protists characterized by a trophic stage during which they exist as solitary cells that phagocytize bacteria or yeasts, and by the formation of stalked sporocarps that bear one or many walled spores (Bonner, 1967; Olive, 1975; Raper, 1973). The cells of most species are non-flagellated amoebae, but several taxa have amoeboflagellate cells.
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THE INTERPHASE COMPLEX OF MICROTUBULES

Microtubule-organizing centers Microtubules were only referred to in a few ul trastructural descriptions of cellular slime molds (e.g., Hohl et al., 1968; Hung and Olive, 1973) prior to the discovery of a special organelle, the nucleus-associated body (NAB), in .E. violaceum and in Q. discoideum (Figs. 1,3,7. Roos, 1975b; Moens, 1976).
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https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-83631-2_3

Write4U · Dec 31, 2020

Just more intelligence than can reasonably be expected.

Write4U · Jan 1, 2021

Abiogenesis?
How about the evolution of inorganic life?

How about movement of inorganic organisms?

Check this out

But what mode of transportation do they use? Looks like cilia to me!

Write4U · Jan 1, 2021

All micro-organisms use 4 modes of transportation;
Ciliates, Flagellates, Amoeboids (pseudo-podia), Sporozoa.

If we compare this to the macro world we have; Rowing, Rotational Propulsion, Spreading, Sowing.
Not too much difference in fundamentals between single celled and multi-celled organisms.

All but Sporozoa are facilitated by microtubules.

Is there a simpler dynamical electro-chemical information processor in nature?

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