Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by James R, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,102
    I get it from your perspective. That's easy...
    ''I can't see God, therefore God does not exist''

    Mmmm! Go on then you can have that dig.

    jan.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You can't understand. You have the mindset of someone who believes in God.
    You need only not believe, and God will cease to trouble you.
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I was not having a dig Jan although I can understand you could think such.

    My point was simply this... One can get in a rut defending something and fail to even reflect upon points in opposition such that it can be that fair points are missed.

    I am too simple a man to disguise if I am having a dig, if I were it would be very clear.

    Well yes that is part of it.

    I dont see God certainly before me or in the media, that sort of thing, but I dont see any activity I attribute to God. I can see that scriptures have been made up based on folks belief but I can not "see" that there were any facts relied upon when man invented God.

    All I observe is folk saying they hold a belief upon their personal faith that they are correct that their "gut" feeling reveals reality to them.

    This faith enables them to avoid the inconsistencies in their arguement for the existence of a God or Gods.

    You are most skillful in an arguement and I admire your ability but with all your skill you have yet to provide one small fact that would offer any support that God is real or gives a toss about humans.

    Alex
     
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  7. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm not defending anything, as I've nothing to defend.
    I am asserting that atheists are basically so because they are without God.

    It is very clear.

    Have I said I hold a belief upon my personal faith, and my gut tells me I'm correct about the reality revealed to me?

    First you have to verify that I fit the bolded description above, as opposes to just saying it.
    Can you do that?

    This thread isn't about providing proof of God's existence, or non existence. You don't see me badgering you to provide proof for God non existence. Do you?
    What you need to do is find one of the many 'Does God Exist' threads and partake. Or you can start yet another 'Does God Exist' thread, and repeat the same old same old.

    It doesn't matter whether or not I can prove God exists. God still exists.
    For you God doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter whether you can prove that or not, because for you God does not exist.

    jan.
     
  8. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,102
    The questions still remain;
    Why do I need faith to believe in God?

    At least you acknowledge that God exists, albeit sub-consciously.

    jan.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Pity.
    Now I will have a dig.... I absolutely agree and yet you do.
    In this thread as well as the other one? Did you miss my last reply to you in the otber thread or did you just ignore it?
    I think you imagine things.
    I do t know have you? My only recollection of your position is that you held scriptures in high regard.
    I dont think I specifically referred to you Jan perhaps re read my post.
    What I see you do Jan has no influence upon how I choose to conduct myself and to be honest I will continue to ask you and others for proof.
    Clearly you do not seek proof Jan and presumably you will not offer proof but we already know that is your position.
    Have a nice day.
    Alex
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That's kind of what the rest of us are saying.

    You are free to believe whatever you want.

    But here, in a science forum, where you have put your beliefs out there for inspection, you'll have to support hem, or they will fall (have fallen) as unfounded, wishful thinking.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    ...in your head.

    Not outside it. Unless you can back that up.
     
  12. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Does it? Or do they simply avoid the inconsistencies and call this form of ignorance faith?
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That works.
    On the one hand they can work out in detail God's expectations, and yet if one asks why did God let those inoccent folk suffer and die we get "God works in mysterious ways".

    Ask Jan for proof... and we get "go on the net" and when, in my case, you ask repeatedly for an answer not given you, I, am accused of badgering.

    How wrong to harp on a point and yet Jan harps upon, in the other thread and now apparently in this one, that atheist means what Jan says and not what e ery internet site says... Of course I raise politely with Jan this inconvenient fact and was not met with the curtiousy of a reply.

    Ignore the inconsistency which is your (Jan's) definition of athiest is wrong... why because Jan must have a God and those poor atheists are without God... Jan must have a God somehow and cant let even a hint of nonexistence be present.. Jan has it that There is a God but they don't believe not they dont believe in God or his existence

    I dont know how folk like Jan can lie to themselves and their family and see themselves as rightious.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed. This is about as close to a concession as can be expected on the interwebs.
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Because there's no good evidence on which to base your belief in God. The only option left to you is to believe regardless of the lack of good evidence; that's faith. See the opening post.
     
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  17. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Who determines what is "good" evidence, though? While someone could claim that "everything is evidence that God exists", others may find "everything" to be rather unconvincing.
    For our beliefs we are a jury of one as to what constitutes sufficient, convincing and rational evidence / argument.
     
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  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Oh yes.
    I wonder what proof I would need, if I saw God I would think I am imagining things.
    Alex
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I'd venture that good evidence requires that the offered evidence be objective, at least to some degree. That is, people need to be able to agree that the particular alleged evidence actually exists as something other than a personal feeling or hunch.

    To put a scientific slant on it: an experiment should be repeatable by somebody else if it is to be of any use to anybody - if it is to "count" for anything. Not only that - it should be reliably repeatable. The results of an experiment should not, ideally, depend on the perception of the individual doing the experiment. We should be able to agree on which is or is not observed.
     
  20. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. Let's take the argument that "everything is evidence of God" since God is understood by the person to be the cause of all. The evidence is objective: you yourself would be evidence that this God exists (so the argument goes). You are not a hunch, you exist.
    Based upon the definition/understanding of God, you are evidence for the existence of God.
    Is this "good" evidence or not? And why?
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I did have a disconcerting experience when I though God was talking to me, it was strange as it was not verbalished it was well imagination on over drive... BUT I was under stress alone in the bush having not seen a human for weeks. I figured I was a little crazy but there would be those who can go the other way.
    Alex
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    How would we go about trying to falsify the hypothesis that God exists if everything counts as evidence for God?

    The problem there is not the evidence; it's the hypothesis itself that's useless in terms of allowing us to reach any conclusion.

    Worse still, the hypothesis that God created everything begs the question by assuming from the start what needs to be shown.
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I would like to withdraw this remark and appologize to Jan and all the folk I had a go at.
    Alex
     

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