Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by James R, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    It's a good thing I don't claim "special theist knowledge" then. Isn't it?

    Jan.
     
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  3. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    I asked you a question.

    No.

    More interested than you. Apparently.

    Jan.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, you claim special "spiritual" knowledge, but refuse to define it except in an obtuse way, which does not inform..

    If you had watched the whole Ted Talks presentation, you would have learned that only when our hallucinatory perception of our observations agree, we can call it reality, either physically material or metaphysically extant.

    Agreement can only be achieved when out hallucinatory experience is described in detail.

    If my hallucinatory experience of my observation describes a wooden table with four legs, and you experience that same hallucinatory observational experience, we can agree that we are both looking at a table.

    If you like we can compare the term "hallucination" with "internal mental hologram". Perhaps that will ease your suspicion that the term hallucination was used in a derogatory manner.
    Read more: Difference Between Delusion and Hallucination | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-delusion-and-hallucination/#ixzz4nPPx9oW5

    As our mental images are approximations of what we see, due to our sensory limitations, they may be fairly called hallucinations. When our hallucinations agree we call it reality.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  7. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Please explain what any of this has to do with our discussion?

    Jan.
     
  8. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    A question to evade my question,

    No one believes anything you post.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,508
    Please explain what you are discussing. I am just probing your mind to find common ground (empathic perspective), but so far you have not provided anything I can recognize or visualize (hallucinate).

    And before you come up with "you are incapable of understanding because you are an atheist", let me state that I do believe in an a priori metaphysical dimension, Bohm's Implicate Order, before it becomes expressed (manifest) in our reality.

    The process of thinking is a physical function of millions of neurons in the brain, but I am quite capable of thinking in abstract terms. In fact the mind (the product of thinking) itself is an abstraction (an internal hallucination/ hologram/imagining/ empathic response/intuition).

    So if any of this comes anywhere near your spiritual perception, let's explore that. If it is difficult to describe, and I know it really is, provide me with a link to a site which you believe approximates your personal spiritual experience.

    If you cannot, then how can you expect anyone to conceptualize what you are talking about?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  10. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    9,891
    I was simply responding to SP. It needs no explanation.

    Post 582...

    I would never say you are incapable, just currently incapable. As long as you are atheist

    I'm not interested in exploring spiritual perceptions. I don't even know what that is.
    What is it?

    You can conceptualise post 582. Yes?
    There's no need to go pass that.

    Jan.
     
  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    9,891
    You do.

    Jan.
     
  12. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    You claim to know something that is somehow off limits to people who haven't been convinced of it.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,508
    From #582,
    What they know about what?
    What does he know?
    Which is?

    Why do you leave me guessing at the religion which allows your guru or teacher to pass on the knowledge gained from that religion for you to make decisions based on that knowledge and that allows you to defend it so vigorously?

    Are you allowed to name the religion. If you do, I promise to study it carefully to see if I can gain knowledge from it.
    I have already said that I have gained knowledge from several religions, even as I may reject the religion itself.
    I have even quoted sins and virtues from the Abrahamic bible which I can wholeheartedly accept.

    Seven sins

    Lust
    – to have an intense desire or need: “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart”

    Gluttony
    – excess in eating and drinking: “for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags”

    Greed
    - excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness: “Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more”

    Laziness
    – disinclined to activity or exertion: not energetic or vigorous: “The way of the sluggard is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway”

    Wrath
    – strong vengeful anger or indignation: “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger”

    Envy
    – painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage: “Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

    Pride
    - quality or state of being proud – inordinate self esteem: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall”


    Seven Virtues

    1. Faith, is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
    2. Hope, is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
    3. Charity, is concern for, and active helping of, others.
    4. Fortitude, is never giving up.
    5. Justice, is being fair and equitable with others.
    6. Prudence, is care of and moderation with money.
    7. Temperance, is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.
    But note, these are secular moral philosophies, which can be defended on purely logical grounds, even by atheists. I do not need a teacher or guru , but just good parents to specifically teach me those fundamental moral tenets. The world would indeed be a better place if those moral messages were practiced by everybody.

    I believe you will find many here who agree with these secular Humanistic tenets.

    Thus the question remains if one needs to have faith or believe in a deity or a religion to practice these logically defensible common sense philosophies. The recognition that these words of wisdom address the human strengths and weaknesses, is sufficient knowledge, IMO.

    None of them seem to require a specific Religion or Deity for them to valid . In fact none of them mention a deity. Just because those sins and virtues are specifically described in Abrahamic scripture, does not necessarily mean that an atheist cannot understand or practice them in their everyday lives.

    If you tell me you use these moral commands in your life, I'll say, "good for you!"
    If I tell you I use these moral commands in my life, will you say the same?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  14. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    9,891
    Ask yourself. You operate the same way according to what you know.
    I'm not discussing the details, only the operation.

    jan.
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    What claim is that?

    jan.
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Oh fuck off.
     
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  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    AWESOME!
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Would that fall under sin or virtue?....

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    Let me guess; in context it would probably fall under virtue....

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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    9,891
    If you want to talk about religion, then start a new thread, and if it's substantial, I will discuss it with you. But right now I'm discussing what is faith.

    We're not talking about religion. But be my guess and study some religions, it might help you to understand religion.

    Your point being...

    That's what you've decided. Congratulations!
    But don't be fooled into thinking that what you decide, is what everyone should decide.

    That's very reassuring.

    So what's your point?

    I wouldn't say anything, as I consider them normal.

    jan.
     
  20. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Told you. Didn't I?

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    jan.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Well, good for you.

    But at the same time that would not be very Charitable of you, now would it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,508
    I addressed that. Any objections to the definition of that Virtue?
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    You'd need to go into more detail, so I can see what you mean by them.

    jan.
     

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