It's learning. We are learning things the hard way. Why? I have no idea, as I am still alive. But rest assured there is a purpose for all of this pain. We need to know the difference between good and evil to be able to appreciate the good (Gospel) right? An appreciation of what is right, through the consequences of what is wrong. We will become spiritually enlightened if we choose to be. ------------------ God loves you and so do I!
First I just want to say am so glad this subject can be discussed so honestly, I wish it was more often. God created man because he wanted to be loved, reasonable request right? We all have a desire to be loved. Well he also knew that a machine loving it's creator isn't exactly very very gratifying. He gave us an option other than service to him. The only thing is that you can't come to his "house" if you choose not to serve him. This is where there is debate. If God is truly forgiving why won't he let anyone into heaven who wants to go? Well here: DUH! NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT TO GO TO HELL! But the ones who will end up in Hell are the ones who didn't listen. They knew the risk they were taking, they heard all the religous "babble" about it, but they ignored it. Not only that, but they didn't want to be forgiven, they preferred doing whatever they wanted. That's not too terrible, except that they didn't care who it effected. They just wanted things their way. This still hasn't answered the question. The thing about these people is that if they lived their lives over they'd probably live the same way. And you're going why when hell is facing you would you live your life the same way? The reason they didn't want to go to hell is because it does not benifit them, they have only themselves in mind. They are the Lucifers of the world saying,"I'm beautiful, and talented and magnificent, I should run this show, no matter what the cost." Now I am not saying all non-Christians are evil, or that all Christians have a ticket for the "train bound for Glory." We all know that is hardly the case. In fact we cannot get to heaven on deeds, but the motives behind them: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,"(love)"I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though i have the gift of phrophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though i give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." This basically says that no matter what we do how we try, or the extent of our deeds, if we have only material, personal, or even heavenly benifits in mind, we are doomed. That sounds incredibly hard doesn't it? How can God expect us to do that? Here's the answer: He doesn't! God knows we can't live up to perfection, not when Satan is more powerful than our will alone, and bugging us at every turn. Only love can create the miracles that can pull us from Satan's clutches. God is Love. He asks only that we Love him. And God loves you so much that he's willing to forgive no matter how many or how big the slip ups are. He loves you so much, that he gave his son to suffer for your sake. That kind of love can move mountains, turn the world upside down, and fill you with an incredible joy for living. When you love someone, you depend on them, and you want to do things that please them, and things they'll appreciate. So when you follow God you learn to live by his rules. Not because you're a robot, but because you see that these things benefit, not only others and follow god, but they benefit you. Not to say your life will be easier when you follow God, but contrary to the common belief when you slip up God will be the one picking you up, dusting you off, tending your wounds, and turning you back on the right track. "But they wait upon the lord shall renew their strngth; they shall mount up on wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." So to all the people who think God is the police man waiting to beat you over the head at your next slip up, or the dictator threateninig your life unless you do it his way: God is benevolent and forgiving. He did not leave us here to suffer from our own deeds. He sees our hearts, and will judge them accordingly. He has a plan for us all, if only we will follow him, he will watch over you, and comfort you, through all of your strife. --------------------------------------------- >CMPHONEIX-----------------------------------
exactly, I couldn't have said it better CMPHONEIX! "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16&17 He did not say, "believe in Him and do good deeds", or "believe in Him and do not sin", he just said, "believe in Him." The good deeds, service, and desire not to sin just comes with loving God. He knows that we will sin, but he forgives us when we ask. The relationship with him is the most important part, the rest will fall into place. Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! [This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 22, 1999).]
CMPHOENIX That was a good post, and i understand where you are going with that. One problem I have with that is: I am not a christian, but i believe in God. I dont read the bible, but i believe in God. I dont belong to any religion ( but the one of my "own"), but i believe in God. So does that mean then that I am going to "hell"? I follow some main rules, but i consider them as just pure logic, and common sence, and I am a part of the biggest church that ever was and ever will be: Nature. So will i go to hell? ------------------ Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Bev. The same thing here as i just wrote. I dont believe in Jesus, and the reason you can read from my other post up there. So if I dont believe in God and Jesus as the Christians do, (or maybe any other religion) Will I get the one way ticket to hell? *We actually have a small town named that "Hell" in Norway, though it means something else* ------------------ Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
H-Kon, I believe the place you are talking of is called Hades as hell is here on earth. Religious factions seem to forget that god sent satan to reign upon the earth not below it. I can not recall that in the bible. Very benevolent of god, I must say. Do not worry about the belief either, he might give you a second chance. If your a good little boy or a good little girl you will go to heaven. I thought we had already been through that pile of shit. The one hundred and forty four thousand go to heaven Mr Phoenix the believers are resurrected to live out their lives again or have you not read the good book. Also somewhere along the story telling god destroys an army of some ten thousand men, I think it was to save someone named David, will look this up, anyway my point here is he was not very benevolent to that army, so the crap on the serial killer bit is, errr, let me see, crap.
H-kon, Christianity says yes. You will go to hell. (Don't blame the messenger!) The only way to heaven to be close to God is through Jesus. generalhurrss, The way that I have been taught is that even children reach the age of accountabilty, so if they are old enough to ask questions and reason it out, they are old enough to make a choice. Also, the stuff you wrote about being resurrected and reliving your life, I understand that we will live out a thousand years after tribulation but after that we will live out eternity in heaven. Is that what you are saying? And there is a pit of Hell, God unleashes Satan from it in the last confrontation between him and Christ. It's in Revelations somewhere and at the moment I don't have time to look for it. Remember H-kon that by accepting Jesus into your life - into your heart (a gift, no strings attached) and truely believing in him, you will go to heaven. I also want you to know that currently I am not attending any church and I have read my Bible more in the last week or so (because of this board) than I have in the past year. But I know that this is NOT the deciding factors in my salvation! Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sirius B wrote, "One question that I have struggled with...is: does God get mad and if so, can he truly be benevolent?" If you'll permit my view on this: In the world of existence one can witness two types of laws in operation: physical laws and spiritual laws. The physical laws concern such things as gravity, attraction, opposites, etc. For example, it is a physical law (on this planet) that something that is thrown up into the air must come down due to the force of gravity. Likewise, there is an evident physical law in the fact that man cannot stay underwater too long without oxygen otherwise he'd drown. Moreover, if you put your hand in fire you will burn it because fire and your hand are simply incompatible. For every effect there is a cause (the visible effect of apples on an apple tree is due to the cause which planted the seed), and there are other such physical laws. The spiritual laws concern those intangibles which invariably we term "qualities" or "virtues" which only man is aware of since the mineral, vegetable and animal kigdoms have no power of perception. Therefore, an animal cannot be "charitable," for example, nor can it be "compassionate" or "wise". Animals live according to instinct, not according to their awareness and practise of spiritual morality. Thus we see that in existence there are physical laws and spiritual laws. These laws were created by a Creator (or God, if you wish). They could not have come into existence by themselves because for every effect there is a cause and the fact that there is a creation proves there must be one Almighty One Who was its creator for a Creator without a creation is not possible nor can it be imagined. Consequently, the law of incompatibles states that if a man puts his hand into fire he will burn it; if you throw yourself off a high cliff you will damage your body; if you remain underwater for too long you will drown for you need oxygen to live. Likewise, on the spiritual plane, if a man tells a lie that lie will soon be found out and have a nefarious effect upon the liar; if you are dishonest such dishonesty will come back to haunt you; if you are not compassionate and loving such lack will only be making your own life miserable for no one will be compassionate and loving toward you. Physical laws have their parallel in spiritual laws. I believe that God gets neither angry nor is He benevolent for such words reflect experiences pertaining to the kingdom of man; God must be, by His very nature, far superior to all human experience since He created us (can a painting be said to be equal to the painter?). But man, who lives within this created existence with all its perfect laws, punishes himnself in being disobedient to these laws and uses such expressions as "the wrath of God" when he is punished for his disobedience. It is not so much that God gets angry but that we have disobeyed His law and suffer the punishment (or reap the reward) inherent within these laws. In simpler terms, let's suppose you tell a child not to pollute his body and mind with drugs, alcohol, and all such poison. Now, supposing you explain to the child the consequences of using drugs and alcohol but that he grows up being disobedient and unheedful of your warning. He takes drugs and uses plenty of alcohol. His life will become a mess and he will live in misery. Is this child experiencing your wrath or simply the consequences of his own disobedience and stupidity? For your part, you were benevolent in that you issued a warning and gave sound advice out of your love for that child. Think about this. Some say that, "if there is a God, why is there so much suffering in the world?" And we answer that, if people were truly obedient to God's laws there would be no such thing as suffering in the world. For example, poverty has no reason for being since there is enough material and immaterial wealth on this planet to feed and educate every living human being on this planet. But the manner in which man uses this wealth is what is evil because he thinks only of himself and not his neighbour; yet God has told us to love our neighbours. Enjoyed talking to you. ------------------ dumaurier
The god of the bible doesn't get angry??? how about Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his ANGER was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. Deut 6:15 For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you lest the ANGER of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. (sounds pretty pissed to me..I mean come on.. destroy... pretty harsh - don't ya think?) Ps. 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, CRUEL both with WRATH and FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Jer 4:8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. Ok ok ok... enough said?????? god is love huh??? god is merciful??
Flash, I am beginning to find it a honour to read your text. You can show the blind the true path to their religion, but only if they take note. It astounds me how they can believe that this god is so perfect and yet it is the same as we are for we came from its image. Everything is imperfect, even a god that wishes to possess a population. Revelation spells the doom for mankind and it is all brought from the wrath of this god not from us. It is the one that sends forth the destroyers to end the lives of false religion and false authority. There will be no compassion and no forgiveness, blood will cover this land and millions of lives will be snuffed out for the sake of belief and loyalty. Satan leads the blind and the blind lead the blind and so forth. [This message has been edited by generalhurrss (edited June 30, 1999).]
To all the reincarnated 'learners' out there: Could somebody explain to me what life's experiences teach a 7-month old infant who gets strangled by his own dad? Or perhaps, you could explain what is learned by a baby born with spina bifida, in extreme and all-consuming pain, and dead 10 hours after birth? Or maybe, if you are pro-life and believe in souls, you could explain what is learned by a miscarried fetus two weeks into the pregnancy? ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
Boris The 7 month old baby that gets strangled is unfortunate, yet the experience is that of the 'fathers' . reincarnation may not be the same thing as predestination. or if it is, would this not be a sacrifice for the sake of integrity. in the case of birth defects, consider the complexity of genetics, and that who is to say that the incarnation has taken form at such an early time. in the case of the infant, awareness of any particular event that can shape enlightenment is beyond recognition, therefor what use would it be to incarnate into a nonchallenging/beneficial set of circumstances. One time, i was at a web sight that closed with the following statement. - "If you are reading this, then your mother didn't abort you, so send her an e-mail and say thanks. " - I sent an email to the author of this websight/quote - " Or, if your mother did abort you and your spirit found better learning, than email your first mother and second mother and tell them both - thanks ." think harder
Learner: If you claim that reincarnation takes stage at some time late in childhood, then I'm sure all the pro-lifers would love to chat with you. But let me ask you a general question: if reincarnation begins at a late stage, then what makes an infant human? Shouldn't we then treat infants on the equal ground with pets -- at least as far as the law is concerned? Also, given your position you'd have to define the precise moment when a soul enters a body -- and what discernible changes are evident as a result of this abrupt transition. Then, I wonder how you would conceptualize mentally-deficient people within your reincarnation framework (e.g. people with severe Down's syndrome.) And, within the framework of the soul, you face the same challenges conceptualizing senility as you do explaining infancy -- does the soul leave the elderly before they actually die? And what about brain trauma effects? How do you explain people that completely lack emotions, or people who cannot form a coherent sentence, or people who fail to recognize even their own face in the mirror, or people with severed corpus calossum who end up fighing off their left hand with their right hand? Where's the unifying soul? Where are the inherent cognitive capacities that the soul supposedly supplies to the body? Oh, and while you are at it, why don't you consider intoxication -- how is it that a chemical can affect the state of soul? ------------------ I am; therefore I think. [This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 02, 1999).]
Boris, i am not sure what is meant by 'spam' , if there is something that has occurred, i am unaware of it, sorry. as for registering, it is optional and currently i will remain unregistered as it is my choice. as for the infant being treated as a pet, i believe that pets do not possess the same potential as human sentience. though i do believe that abortion is not unkind. however this is not about the rights of the unborn, it is about the interaction of human Spirit. what makes an infant human is simply put, human genetics; the capacity of human development alone grants sovereignty out of general reverence. the precise moment is not fixed, and cannot be as this capacity is ever dynamic and circumstancial 'evaluations' may be consuming, particularly if there is an intention of the incarnation - a role to seek, a challenge to overcome, or a time to 'speak' , etc .. when a choice is made, the infant begins to reveal character. a personality begins to take form; the child that grows up to be a scientist may begin to implore observational skills early, the child that may be faced with degenerative genetics may be joyful and content, a lover of its own life, the child of an incarnation that has made no significant decisions may be cranky, happy, or viewed as average,(etc..) this is not an attempt to belie the question, as in this situation consider the billiard table. in the beginning, there is an order/structure to the formation of billiards, they are seperated by an action, and by facing challenge and ones skill, an attempt is made to reunify a form, to find a proper place for matters utilizing a discipline of intent and sensible goal. this occurrs more often than not. in the case of the mentally deficient, there can be astounding lessons to confront. most individuals are not 'in tune' with the Spirit, even those who are steadfastly religious. for many this is an overwhelming situation, particularly in the world that we currently live in. often there are fundamental lessons that are much clearer when this 'society' is reasonably excluded. not to say that this individual is not made fun of. but there are many subtle transformations that do occurr within this kind of lifetime; many of which our 'science' is fully unaware of. there is a man in a near city that suffers from an affliction much like tourette syndrome. he gets put into a situation where he is able to see society as 'it' wishes to 'see' itself. have you ever read Birth of the Clinic by Michel Foucault ? society marks its territory of tolerance like floors in a building. this is not a world for the handicapped, yet the handicapped trully are a part of our world. what i am pointing out is that it is not merely the brain that constitutes soul. emotions are stimuli as they can record this within the physical body. the speculation of the unifying soul is a reach at best. such is true that at times, an incarnation may well 'abort' . the elderly may be left with unsorted memories and chemichal malstructuring - loose consensus of a life well worn. although, this does not always occur. when you speak of inherent cognitive capacities, these are well adorned. what has drawn you to your favorite pastime ? is it a result of prior condition? or is it a notion of your personal quest ? perhaps there is a reason you debate here.. though there are plenty of disagreements, you have displayed courtesy and respect for what others have to say; this is something that is not apart from what i am speaking of. an interest is (in a way) a request. though you disagree, you embrace learning of possibility. give it time. and in closing: about intoxication of the soul, i believe that to be an assumption ; though it would seem that you are referring to the numbness and dulling of the senses as being a 'seperation' of the mind and soul, for the most part your incarnation does not leave you. though the Spirit can become apparent through the physical body in subtle ways. have you ever made a decision to take the long way home from work, later to hear that an accident has occurred on the road you normally take. would you believe the 'luck'? when intoxicated, it is more difficult to perceive these notions since the senses are dulled. if you wish, i can tell more later. (what can occur in white, can occur in black)
Boris, i am not sure what is meant by 'spam' , if there is something that has occurred, i am unaware of it, sorry. as for registering, it is optional and currently i will remain unregistered as it is my choice. as for the infant being treated as a pet, i believe that pets do not possess the same potential as human sentience. though i do believe that abortion is not unkind. however this is not about the rights of the unborn, it is about the interaction of human Spirit. what makes an infant human is simply put, human genetics; the capacity of human development alone grants sovereignty out of general reverence. the precise moment is not fixed, and cannot be as this capacity is ever dynamic and circumstancial 'evaluations' may be consuming, particularly if there is an intention of the incarnation - a role to seek, a challenge to overcome, or a time to 'speak' , etc .. when a choice is made, the infant begins to reveal character. a personality begins to take form; the child that grows up to be a scientist may begin to implore observational skills early, the child that may be faced with degenerative genetics may be joyful and content, a lover of its own life, the child of an incarnation that has made no significant decisions may be cranky, happy, or viewed as average,(etc..) this is not an attempt to belie the question, as in this situation consider the billiard table. in the beginning, there is an order/structure to the formation of billiards, they are seperated by an action, and by facing challenge and ones skill, an attempt is made to reunify a form, to find a proper place for matters utilizing a discipline of intent and sensible goal. this occurrs more often than not. in the case of the mentally deficient, there can be astounding lessons to confront. most individuals are not 'in tune' with the Spirit, even those who are steadfastly religious. for many this is an overwhelming situation, particularly in the world that we currently live in. often there are fundamental lessons that are much clearer when this 'society' is reasonably excluded. not to say that this individual is not made fun of. but there are many subtle transformations that do occurr within this kind of lifetime; many of which our 'science' is fully unaware of. there is a man in a near city that suffers from an affliction much like tourette syndrome. he gets put into a situation where he is able to see society as 'it' wishes to 'see' itself. have you ever read Birth of the Clinic by Michel Foucault ? society marks its territory of tolerance like floors in a building. this is not a world for the handicapped, yet the handicapped trully are a part of our world. what i am pointing out is that it is not merely the brain that constitutes soul. emotions are stimuli as they can record this within the physical body. the speculation of the unifying soul is a reach at best. such is true that at times, an incarnation may well 'abort' . the elderly may be left with unsorted memories and chemichal malstructuring - loose consensus of a life well worn. although, this does not always occur. when you speak of inherent cognitive capacities, these are well adorned. what has drawn you to your favorite pastime ? is it a result of prior condition? or is it a notion of your personal quest ? perhaps there is a reason you debate here.. though there are plenty of disagreements, you have displayed courtesy and respect for what others have to say; this is something that is not apart from what i am speaking of. an interest is (in a way) a request. though you disagree, you embrace learning of possibility. give it time. and in closing: about intoxication of the soul, i believe that to be an assumption ; though it would seem that you are referring to the numbness and dulling of the senses as being a 'seperation' of the mind and soul, for the most part your incarnation does not leave you. though the Spirit can become apparent through the physical body in subtle ways. have you ever made a decision to take the long way home from work, later to hear that an accident has occurred on the road you normally take. would you believe the 'luck'? when intoxicated, it is more difficult to perceive these notions since the senses are dulled. if you wish, i can tell more later. (what can occur in white, can occur in black)
Well.. the only thing i really learn from this whole thing, is that i dont. There are just as many theories as there are answers. Stand by your particular belief as much as you want, but no one in his or hers right mind can say that they have the answers. I you get an answer, you'll just end up with a tenfold of new questions Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! As for my ticket to hell that i asked about earlier. Well. If i get one, then that is really okay because no one knows the "answers" as of today, and since no one does, then how can i do the "right" thing? I will follow generalhurrs answer saying that as long as you are good, and do good things, you should be okay. So as of now i am going to take a couple of weeks of this forum to do other things.. maybe i will get wiser then.. The place Hell actually exist Generallhurrs. If you have a map, look just south of Trondheim Norway.. You should see itPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\
H-kon, I did answer your question about "the oneway ticket to hell." Look earlier here for my reply. If you have other questions feel free to ask? I don't know that I can answer them all, but I will try. Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
general, *S* thank you... It blows my mind too how so many can think the bible/god is perfect.. Did you note that not one "christian" had a come back with the last set of contradictions I had posted under "believe" LMAO... they just ignored that one all to hell now didn't they??? LMAO...
Flash, I apologize for not having replied to that particular post. I'm taking some classes and next week are finals. I wrote down the verses you stated and I promise that I will read them and get back to you about your post as soon as I have more free time. I do know that the Bible is very complex and I'm not sure that I can adequately respond or that I am knowledgeable enough on the Bible and the theology behind it to be correct, so it might take me some time to reply. I do not want to mislead you in anyway. I want you to also understand that my belief in God and that the Bible is his written word is based on "simple" faith and his presence in my life. I have never questioned the Bible as you have, but you have made a good argument and I will try to make the time to study the verses and respond to them honestly. Bare with me! Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
