generalhurrss, to answer your question : I don't have the faintest idea ! I will be as surprised as you are, it is one way of making death a bit less frightening because I will be so curious about it that I might forget my fear of the unknown. Sirius B, Darn, perhaps our math is wrong after all... Boris, Your devotion to dialectic materialism sounds almost as passionate as Lori's devotion for christ. You do realise you are making a statement of believe as irrational (as in not verifiable) as her by believing everything is physical. Beside I grow more and more suspicious of you having read works of Marx or Hegel. Your view on determinism sounds a bit like their to me ;-). I must protest against this kind of determinism because there has been experimental proof against it, namely quantum uncertainty. Einstein thought there were hidden variabels and a lot of people still do but if you follow the copenhagen interpretation of quantummechanics then there is no way of predicting when (for example) an unstable nucleus will decay. Of course you might say but that is only on the microscopic level, macroscopically things are determined. But you know as well as I do that determinism doesn't work like that, or everything is determined or it isn't, there is no way between it. Lori, I must thank you for your confidence in that I will succeed in conceptualising omnipotence but I'm afraid that is just the reason why I posted this message. In raising the question I was hoping to get some new input from any of you guys. Maybe we should first better define what free will is. Can we simple put free will equal to making choises who are by themselves equally probable ? Say I 'm walking down a road and suddenly I come to a T-junction. I am free to choose one of the two roads. Now god in his omnipotence can make me choose the left one whithout me realising this. If he does that the freedom of choosing has gone up one level from me to him. How do I know that I made the choise ? There is no way of knowing for certain so this is where faith comes in. Here we will have to believe that god has left us free to make the choise. Why ? Because He told us "He made us in His image". Of course this is also something we just have to believe. This is the problem I have with religion the proliferation of things you "just have to believe in" This problem always arises when you are dealing with inconsitent theories. Once you have one inconsistency, everything can be proven with the theory. Is there a way out ? Logic tells us to disregard any inconsistent theory but we are illogical beings so the mysterie stays.
Plato, we will have to "tackle" that whole math thing on another thread (LoL). I am more interested in the "proliferation of things we must believe." I had a huge problem with this a year ago. It really almost drove me to join the "ranks" of the Un-believers! It seemed no one could give me a straight answer. I went to a school of ministry and thought they (all those in attendence) must have the answers. No one did! I am sure you can imagine what happened next. I declared myself "athiest." The moment I did this, everything became crystal clear...(product of 6 and 5 again). For the record (not that it matters) I am not an athiest (although, I have a few "good" friends who are) and I did finally get the answers I (so desprately) searched for. You guys have the honor of hearing that "testimonial" (LoL). Those who know me will never hear me say that...? Hmmmm How does this help you (Plato)? If you really want to know the answer to something, you usually find it (you just have to "believe"..Oops!)
Lori, how so?????? come on... LOL you know christians can take ANYTHING.. regarding god's characteristics..ect.. and make it fit by coming up with answers such as yours. Sirius..first, wanted to say welcome to the board ... as far as your comment to Plato.. RE: How does this help you (Plato)? If you really want to know the answer to something, you usually find it (you just have to "believe"..Oops!) I could make myself believe anything if I wanted to, but if I did this..would I be following my heart???? Wouldn't my belief then be some made up f'd up illusion? Sure it would... truth is in our hearts.. don't you think??? What matters is that our actions follow what is in our hearts. Making yourself believe in something you do not believe in..just doesn't make any sense...because your belief then is false.
in accordance to what i wrote before, i guess what i meant is that God isn't omnipotent and that there may be something greater out there... But anyway, if God truely is omnipotent, then, like Plato was saying, it eliminates all free will and choice, and we only have faith that he left us this choice. So, in theory, how do we even know at all- maybe he really does control out lives and only chooses for us to have faith and others not to, if that were so, then those who have no faith could argue "how come he chose them and not me?" and then those who belive would tell them because they have faith in their God. Some could also argue that since some believe and others do not, then that proves to them that God is fair and gives us a choice. But of course how do we even know...and so the loop recircles. Do you understand what i mean? We could analze the c*rap out of this and we wouldn't get very far...perhaps one day the answer will present it's self but then that creates a whole new discussion about if God wants us to know or not. Also, another observation, maybe with God and his omnipotent ways he allows us to think so we can learn- what is the point of creating life if you control its every move...but then of course that could be taken into context to that of a little girl playing with her Barbies and giving her doll a new car, a house, a boyfriend and a closet full of clothes... Ja Ne ,Ghost ITM
Plato, I suggest you read the bible from cover to cover, you will be surprised and more curious than ever. When we pass over we are merely sleeping. Once armageddon has been and gone we are resurrected to walk the earth again (I say 'we' metaphorically) but not all of us are given this second chance, me especially as I defy god's existance. Anyway this is how the story goes, we are to be faithful to god and abide by the teachings of the bible, lead a clean happy life (and no swearing, Lori), but always we must give thanks to our creator for he will return this with everlasting life, yep, live forever if you are faithful enough. What happens is after armageddon has taken place and god has rid the earth of all false religions, the christian religion being the true religion, apparently, all those that believed in god or who did not receive word of god will be resurrected to live upon the earth for one thousand years and after that period, I think, he will unleash the devil for the second time to test the will of his people. Those that fail him will die, permanent, and those who stay faithful unto him will live forever. Only the chosen one hundred and forty-four thousand have a seat in heaven, I would imagine these are the ones who are loyal unto him from birth to death (not Lori). You can check this out it is in the bible. Two years of bible studying wakes you up.
Hey "Flash" Thanks for the ride on the Welcome Wagon (Yeah!) I know it sounds hard to believe, and is not very logical but, all the answers are just "not available" (at this time). Have you ever been traveling on the freeway and forgot what exit you were suppose to take? You couldn't pull over on the shoulder to ask anyone, so you took the off ramp that you "believed" was the correct one. If you make a mistake, then you get back on and try it again. I know that's an "ultra-simplistic" way to view it but when it all boils down...understanding God and making a decision to "believe"...is... EFFORTLESS. (that always makes me smile...see I'm smiling at you right now!) [This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited May 27, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited May 27, 1999).]
Plato: Hey man, ain't nothing wrong with materialism. And it's not unverifiable either. Though I can't say I've read Marx or Hegel; everything you hear is basically my own diatribe Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But on the serious side: if you claim that at the quantum level the universe is not deterministic, then aren't you saying that at that level the universe isn't causal? Then you'd seem to be proclaiming that at that ultimate level the universe isn't even physical! I personally prefer determinism at all levels over that last statement. Besides, once you claim there is a duality of existence (causal and non-causal), you are faced with the problem of interface: how does one connect (transition) to the other?? It's the same problem as the one that arises out of the supposed interaction between a material body and an immaterial soul. How do we make a connection? The Copenhagen interpretation is a sore in my eyes; how can anyone seriously claim that math is the ultimate level of understanding, and that there is no solid reality beyond the formulas?! Math is only a model of physical reality, let's not forget that. 2+2=4 is only true because that's how it is in the physical world. I'd much rather believe that the fine substructure of the Planck-scale universe is unobservable with the present methods, rather than believe that it doesn't exist. But why don't we question idealism instead of materialism here? You, Plato, seem to be clinging to that school of thought, even judging by your 'callsign'. How do you justify your belief in the spiritual? Or, even more importantly, how did such a belief come about in your case? Oh -- and what do you think about Plato's (the real guy's Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!) ideal forms? After all, that's where the Christians got their idea of heaven, isn't it? Isn't that stuff a bit too anscient and primitive for these days?
Sirius B.. So what you are saying...is some how some way I have taken the wrong road in believing in God? Its effortless?? Ok, I REALLY am trying to understand you.. what connection?? what does one do to get on this right road?? how do you not know it is nothing but a dead in again, time and energy wasted!?!?!?!!?!?! What makes you think you are right? HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW do you know for FACT???
Somnambulists claim that the entire world and everything in it is but a dream. Some more extreme views state that it's only a dream in God's mind. I think it's total kaka, but that viewpoint (and something Nicolas Negroponte once said) inspired me to the following little trip. Imagine the whole world is a computer simulation. I mean, an outright, no-holds-barred, down-to-the-last-quark super-massive computation. The simulation is totally deterministic, since everything and anything that happens only happens causally and according to the pre-programmed laws. Now imagine there's this human, being simulated to the last atom, inhabiting a planet he/she calls Earth. The human thinks it has choice, and freedom of thought if nothing else. Well, we all know the human doesn't have any choice; in fact it doesn't even exist for real -- it's just a pattern of activity in the computational grid. But, from the human's viewpoint, it experiences things with all of its senses, it perceives a continuous stream of thought and consciousness on its part, and in general it has absolutely no way of knowing that it's actually only a simulation. Hey, it could happen Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now -- the human thinks it has a soul... Wrong! The human thinks it has free will... Wrong!! The human thinks God made him. Wrong!!! See what I'm driving at? It might be useful to form theories about the functioning of matter within the universe, since such theories tend to lead toward new tools, deeper understanding of reality, and so on. But if we can explain the functionality of the universe and ourselves with no help from supernatural assumptions (which, it seems, we can) -- then why even bother sticking to those assumptions? What's the chance these random guesses even approach the truth? Mathematically, the chance is 0. [This message has been edited by Boris (edited May 28, 1999).]
Generalhurrss I think it is interesting that you said about the 144.000 that has the ticket to go to "Level 2" I havent read the bible at all, but i also cant remember that Jesus approved any churches either.. tell me about that, and why Christianity is the "right" religion. As I said before, i havent read the bible, but from the little that i have read, and from the Christian people that i have talked to, i cant see figure out why it all refers to the "Jews" " The king of Jews" and all that. .where does it say white people, black people, asians and indians and all that? This sounds stupid, but it is still my belief that the Bible, and the religion that comes from that, is all meant for Jews and Jews only. So again that tells me that those 144.000 people that got the ticket, will all be Jews. Dont tell me that i am full of crap and all that, give me a normal and straight answer. I know that there are many Christians here, me not being one of them, so dont get mad at me for expressing my opinion. I know is sounds strange, but it seems to me that many of you know alot about that, and i am looking for an answer to it.. I am a Norwegian, and since Christianity killed the old norse religion by force between AD 990-1045 ( Thor, Odin, Loke and all those Gods) The only other European religion that i can think of other than the Norse, is the old Greek Mythology which shared the same fate as the Norse did. by the way.. Many scandinavians now convert from Christianity, to the old norse again. What does that tell you? " Hey.. I am only Norwegian..."
H-Kon, Firstly let us put humanity into perspective here. It does not matter if your are Norwegian, we are all born equal, that you must remember. Churches do not exist in the true religion, they are called kingdom halls and they are merely large rooms with a stand or stage were believers speak to the congregation, there are no icons, no pictures or depictions, no crosses and no alters. What you see are churches of false religion built in the middle ages by people who did not understand the true nature of the bible. I do understand that something happened between the Jews and god and that he spited them, I shall look into that one. When the tower of Babylon was built god sent forth his rage and divided the people cursing them with different colours and languages so that it became more difficult for them to defy him, so I should imagine that in the early part of the scriptures everyone spoke the same language and bore the same colour skin. The bible is very in-depth. The hundred and forty-four thousand will probably be what we would call 'high priests' but these chosen ones will have a faith and a devotion unmatched by anyone of god's followers, they will be the true leaders of christian religion. Why is christianity the right religion. Take a look at the world today. Ireland consists of catholics and protestants and frequently that break the laws of god, thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbour. Laws are made not to be broken. Islamics preach the word of god via a machine gun, again thou shalt not kill. Mormons take a percentage of your wage, god only asks you to give what you can afford, if you look deep enough you will see that all these religions and more stray from the teachings of the scriptures, so all are false religions and all will feel god's wrath for their lack of faith and for lying to his people. They have all lied. As I grew up I was told that if I was good I would go to heaven, 'a lie' and if I was bad I would go to hell, 'a lie'. Hell is here on earth, god sent forth satan to reign on earth not in a fiery pit. The only reason people leave christianity is because you have to be devoted to god and truly believe in the bibles outcome of everlasting life, that is why Jehovah's witnesses, the christians will survive armageddon and have everlasting life, because they truly believe in the bible and follow it to the letter, so to speak. P.S. H-Kon you are not full of crap, you are as I was two years ago, but someone took their time to teach me the truth behind the bible and what I was taught in school merely disgusts me. You ask questions because you want to understand and that is were the human race has failed on religion because very few understand. Probably only two percent of the planets population actually have the true faith of christianity.
I think God is omnipotent. I all so think that he loves us, but that love is that of a parent. I do believe in life after this universe. There are many things that a parent might lovingly and knowingly do to a child that is good for the child even if that child hates it. There is many things in this universe that we think of as bad ,but maybe in the view of the afterlife they are good for us. If what doesn't destroy us makes us stronger and if life goes on after death in this life, then maybe as bad as things seem in the long run it makes us stronger.
H-Kon, I have got the answer for you about the jewish question and they definitely do not come under the list of the hundred and forty-four thousand. In the bible the jews persecuted Christ, the son of JEHOVAH, and then they crucified him. This, obviously, angered Jehovah so he cursed the jews and refused to recognise them. Singularly he has forgiven jews who have proven themselves to be loyal to him, but he has never forgiven them on the whole, remember their persecution in the second world war. This is what Jehovah saw for them in the future and that is why he was not their to answer their call. They killed his son and he took his revenge by allowing them to suffer. Is Jehovah omnipotent? I guess he can do as he pleases after all he owns us.
Thank you for your answer Generalhurrss. I still dont get the point where it says "Jesus the King of jews, and its all about Jews. If the Jews were the bad guys in this story, then i still dont understand it. .hey i might pick up the book and just go ahead and read it. tho i heard that takes around 4 years,, but. thanks again. ( I wonder what Lori is gonna say about this LOL)
I'm sorry "Flash" In response to your post to me I only have the follwing to say... 1. You didn't take a "wrong road" 2. There probably isn't even a road to take 3. Maybe it's not "EFFORTLESS" at all 4. There really is no "connection" 5. I am not right, not at all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! 6. I truly, don't know for "FACT" As for the "highway off ramp" scenario....it was a bad, bad, bad scenario. You mustn't take anything I write as a direct "hit" against you or anything you may believe. I am sorry (to the 10th power).
I forgot one thing tho. Generalhurrss I agree with you about the Mormons, Islam, and all the other denominations. But what i cant quite understand is what people will be the ones that get to Level 2? For me that would be the people that believe in God through the Nature, and all that Nature gives us.. Humans are the only rase on this planet that dont take care of the Nature we have around us, and that is also the reason why i think this planet dont belong to us.. since we cant take care of it, and we will be punished. People say that Nostradamus is cryptic.. what about all those people who wrote the bible.. man. Oh.. Do you believe that all religions, even those that are no more, including the Mayas, Inkas, and do have their little "book" meaning the truth given to them. like the bible. I am havent studied religion much, except for that i was forced to study in school But is there a " red thread" that all religions have in common? Do anyone have a clear picture on that? I have to say that i really do not believe in the religions of today.. I Believe in God, but not in the shape or form that we perceive it today. I believe in God, as in the Nature, Where every living thing has a soul, and a purpose. ( Psychotronic energy, but thats another story) . " Just another Norwegian"
NUTTYKONG, Tell me.. would a father send his child to a pit of darkness..continuous falling.. weeping...nashing of teeth...continually reminded of the wrong things that they had done... nothing but pure torture?? and for what??? because you do not do what he wants you to..pretty harh if you ask me.
Sirius B, awwww shit, man... I didn't mean for you to think that I am mad at you..please.. do not take it that way.. I am the one that is sorry... I get wrapped up sometimes and things just over take without thinking how it may sound. I did not mean to make you feel bad.. I think its time for flash to take a break from the forum awhile.. LOL.. catch ya around later..
H-Kon, I believe Christ was the king of the jews because that is what he was at the time before they crucified him. I shall try to find out more on this so that we can both get a better understanding. On the hundred and forty-four thousand, I shall see if I can find a better picture on that too as even I am unsure as to who these chosen ones are. The only common denomination of all religions is a god and that is the only similarity. The bible is supposed to be the true writings of the actual creator of the universe written by scholars for his people, so ancient religions such as the Incas, etc would not or may not have read the true words of Jehovah, this would mean that after armageddon has taken place these people would have to be resurrected in order to receive the true teachings of the bible. What the human race fails to recognise is that to believe in Jehovah is to believe in the bible and to follow its teachings and this is what ninety-eight percent of the population does not do. Jehovah's witness have a quest in life and that is teach us the word of Jehovah, but for them it is a grim task because most of the human race is ignorant and care less for what is in the bible. You must read and follow the scriptures to truly believe in a god, it is no good just saying that you believe and hope that something becomes of it. As I have said before, it takes devotion and loyalty which many humans do not possess, unfortunately, that is why we are destroying our planet. The true christian religion is very difficult to grasp simply because we have been taught the wrong concept during our educational years. To understand the concept of the bible your mind must be open to all kinds of suggestion and great thinking. It is a long path, but it all boils down to faith. This is our planet, it was given to us by Jehovah, only we have forgotten and those that are faithless shall perish, like me.
Ok, general, I've tried to be nice, but honestly, man, you've been brain-washed. Flash, this is why you can't stand Christianity. Exactly why, and I couldn't have made up a better example. Skep, you wanna talk about exclusivity? First of all, general, you asked me what happens when we die, and me, being the helpful person that I am, gives you some pointers about near-death experiences. But you really didn't WANT to know what happens when you die, because apparently you already know! And that f'ing amazes me, seeing as how you're still alive! Oh, I see, a couple of pimple-faced teenage boys with neck ties on gave you all of the answers. Well, seeing as how they did, I don't appreciated being condescended to, and toyed with. If you've got a question, then ask it. If you've got something to say, then say it. But this is no Biblical quiz show, and I don't like it when people yank my chain. I'm out here to actually LEARN something, not to tell everyone that I already have all of the answers, and quiz them til they get it right. What I'm led to believe, I share with others, and I try to respect differing opinions, but yours sir, stinks! So you're not going to heaven, and neither am I, huh? Because I swear? So, what are you in for? Lying to your mommy? Do you have any idea what kind of damage you're doing to your own soul? Not to mention, Flash is probably regurgetating her beer right now! No one out here, or anywhere for that matter, needs any more negative, judgement-soaked, doom and gloom from Christians, ok? I think it's fair to say that we've all been damaged by that stinking perception at some point, and I'm sick of it. I mean think about it dude, you let a bunch of egotistical cult members convince you that they were somehow better people than you are. The 144,000? H-kon, these are the Jews who will preach the Gospel of Christ after the rapture of the church in the end times. They are protected people. They don't get it right the first time, many people don't, but think about it...Who better to preach the Word of God when the Church is gone? When the Holy Spirit is gone? When there is no help from the good spirits anymore? They will save many from the antichrist; they have been preparing to for centuries, and they don't even know it. And that is hogwash about them being the only ones to enter heaven. Absolute crazy bull-shit, man. They may have "special roles" but we all will. EVEN YOU, IF YOU WAKE UP! Oh, and one more thing...hell is not here on earth today for us. It is on earth, but only AFTER death, silly. The definition of hell is being stuck earth-bound, or in some capacity, void of God in the afterlife. Stop looking to charismatic leaders to tell you what to think and how to live. Follow your own heart; that's why God gave it to you. All you're doing is breaking it.
