Even a "want" establishes a purpose, what to speak of a need. Desire, by its very nature, establishes purpose. The fact that not all our desires get fulfilled (whether curtailed by the trajectory of rocks, other living entities or even our own mind and senses) certainly introduces an apparent dichotomy between personal and universal purpose. However to label this dichotomy (perhaps out of frustration) as an irrational impasse is counter-intuitive to life and how we structure ourselves both collectively and individually. Infact, I would put it to you that our willingness to integrate into society (where we have greater opportunity to pursue individual needs and wants by submitting to a collective) serves as an example of how an individual reaps increased benefits by being socialized around universal principles. Far from it to say universal principles are irrational, its more accurate to say that selfish ones (or ones that resolve solely and wholly around the self) are.
Far from greed getting satiated by getting everything you want, it tends to get bigger. In other words, a universal principle seems to be in place : those who organize themselves (both individually and collectively) so their minds don't run like open smorgasboards approach life more peacefully. Its not so much that this planet has resource issues .... it has distribution issues.
I'm saying it's faith which is irrational, not the idea of a personal or social purpose. It's rational to want to organize a society, but not rational to think the universe cares one bit about you doing it.
I agree that greed and selfishness are social issues, but I don't see what that has to do with god or faith. Except that if you think the world was created just for humans, and it's all going to end when Jesus comes, you will use resources selfishly.
And I am saying that the idea of the universe being bereft of purpose is counter-intuitive to our very nature of desire and social structure. If one has no scope for objective principles, one is left to navigate the necessarily irrational selfish realm .... which leads to predictable results. If you want to introduce faith to the discussion, you will have to be a bit more clear about what you are talking about. Dogma? Religious institutions? Authority structures in general?
The trajectory of stones, other living entities and even our own mind and senses certainly illustrates that this world was not only meant for humans. However you can talk of humans having unique facilities and opportunities compared to other living entities. The fact that there is a lot of talk of this planet entering the anthropocene age tends to confirm it.
The most enjyable time of my life is when I was living as a hermit in the bush with the bearest of possessions. I threw out all clothes except four sets of black track suits (interchangable and no decision what to wear) wore one set the others stayed on the clothes line..no time wasted putting them in cupboards or draws. One plate, one bowl, one sause pan, one wok, one knife one fork one spoon. A small wood fire...no electricity bills. Its not the money its the time you waste paying for stuff ... Gravity fed water supply (not water bills) a solar panel a battery and a small tv and a radio No electricity bills. A small phone that did the net and the rest was astronomy gear... A small car used for transport not as a statement of status. Little tidy up after a meal, the dishes simply could not pile up and laundry took care of itself. Dirty clothes..wash them hang them up get clean clothes from alongside them on the line...and Sunlight is so good to kill stuff...very clean. And all without a God to cloud my mind or cause me to go out on a Sunday to be subjected to judgement. Any God one will examine will reflect the ideas and rationality of its creator, namely a human, and given their minds become somewhat preoccupied with creating a God one need not expect their created God to be rational when judged in another era. The God of the Old Testament is a reflection of a different era and so when we look at that God we judge the people that created that God. The product was something from the bronze age obviously. The God of the New Testament although apparently the same God certainly is different again reflecting a slightly different era. And today God is being reinvented hopefully to be a little more rational but still a reflection of those who create the God or new God. I would like God to be updated each year much like our cars or computers such that our model is better than last year. And why cant that be so? after all it is humans who create the God.. The churchand all religions are slack being content to re run the same God for 2000 years such that now the model is horribly outdated. The holy books need substantial editing to remove just so much because they have left a major edit for so very long. alex
I disagree. Our desire for social order is the product of evolution, which has nothing to do with the universe as a whole. We can also selflessly pursue subjective principles, like MLK or Gandhi. Also, there can be objectively good principles that don't require a connection to any theoretical objective universal purpose. So, the universe doesn't care if we live or die, but it's still objectively better for humans to live rather than be mass murdered for no reason.
As a black man, I trust a white Sheriff in Cobb County, Georgia in a MAGA hat chewing Red Man and wearing reflective sunglasses stopping me at 2 a.m. on a dark, desolate, rural road in my new, shiny, NY-plated Cadillac Escalade with dark tinted windows and 40” spinners while I blast “Cop Killer” and reach under my seat for my license, registration, and insurance, much more than I trust Robert Mueller. Or Barack Obama.
Which just might be irrational (away from what we consider rational) stupidity when we look at the types of gods people invent Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
What you say is true. There is certainly a great pleasure in living simply. There is a certain point where material things stop serving you, and you start serving them. Its very difficult to find a sustainable balance. Even in your case, despite it being the happiest time of your life, you were somehow or other forced to return to the lower taste and give this life up. I don't say that to disparage you. I say it to illustrate how intuitive it is for us to fulfill our needs in the structure of some collective. Even when we disconnect from society, we never enter solitude so completely. Even if we don't take a phone with us, we take our mind which has recorded so many impressions. "God made the country, and man made the town,"- Cowper Maybe it wasn't God clouding your mind. (But I agree. If my spiritial life revolved around being told what a deadbeat I was, I would probably head for the hills too) Christianity is not my strong suit, but from what I understand, Jesus drew up a revised contract to cover what was in the old testament to "Love your neighbour as you love yourself and worship god with all your hearts". Its not clear how this message (despite the controversies of Greek translations, the contributions of Paul, Catholic Church etc) has become obsolete in lieu of modern developments. And even in the case of the Old Testament (which again, is not my strong suit), there seems to be ample relevant material for interested parties If people are just (actually, probably "more") susceptible to desire, greed and anger, what is the need to keep god updated like a smart phone? Sometimes in discussing spiritual topics an echo chamber develops where people say things like "All religions are ..." without having done anything remotely close to studying all religions or even history. On the contrary, I would argue that they have already been subject to too much editing (by unqualified persons)
Unless you have recourse to objective principles, you cannot (rationally) say that bolded statement. Infact alot of it is off tilt. How can an avenue of change within the universe (evolution) have nothing to do with the universe?
" Everybody creates his God according to his own image and spirit. If triangles made a God they would give him three sides." / Charles de Montesquieu . Persian Letters, 1721 / But if physicists make a God, they would give Him concrete mathematical and physical parameters. Philosophy without laws, formulas, equations of Physics is tautology. ========= '' Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.'' Niels Bohr ==============
Objective applies within the context of human society. A local objective value still isn't universal. The universe has no purpose because there is no agent to give it purpose, or at least no evidence of one. And no evidence of a principle like acting good prevents bad things from happening to you.
I had to return to the city to be with my father as he needed me. I would not have given it up for anyone else. And when he passes I will return...but with more telescopes ☺ To be clear I dropped out of religion in my early teens. Never felt the need nor could I see that it was healthy believing in what I considered a fairy tale. I try to do this, love others, in so far as I extend respect to others and try not to judge them. It allows one not to get upset with folk who say cut you off in traffic. ..generally you can stay at peace.. I forgive others rather than seek revenge because with that approach one can maintain peace of mind and reduce the body count☺. I hear the stories of down and out folk and when you hear how they reached that point you wonder if you could have even survived let alone keep some sort of sanity. One guy I know..his mother has burnt down two of his houses and fraudulently mortgaged the third...he seems a little strange and no wonder...I think I would have slashed my wrists after the first..but others judge him with no appreciation for why he is a little different to them. I respect this chap ... that he could somehow continue and others only see that he is strange. Well I am one of those people. However I have studied the concept I bet more than so many folk who see themselves as religious. I like tracing how religions probably developed..how the concept of christianity was a rehash of many earlier religions..how humans saw the Sun stars and Moon as Gods and then related themselves to these objects to claim Godhood. If you limit yourself to the bible and the heresay that is supposed to be word for word what Jesus said you wont understand religion. You may find good ideas for life..maintain positive emotions , dont waste time on revenge...practical stuff..but if you focus on worshipping some presumably fictional character as the Son of a mythical God you will sever all ties with reality. I studied Law and appreciate where the concept of law originated ..from religion and there was need for what we see today as strange laws..how to treat your slaves seems terrible today but was back then no doubt very new age and unbelievably kind way back. But it is now out of date. ..replace it with how to treat employees decently but please bring it into this era. I appreciate the ability of religion to unite peoples to the status of a nation and to have millions of young men die happily on the battle field. Its sad but where would we be without religion to create an us and them mentality. Gosh there would be so many humans we would not be able to move.☺ The culling ability of religion through out history is very much unappreciated. And if I were elected the world ruler,even as an athiest, I would not get rid of religion but use it to help control the populace and keep them content ...mind you if world leader I would create the perfect utopia obviously.☺ and everyone would be happy...such that they would not have to dream of a not existent afterlife. By edit I actually meant throw the lot out☺and start from scratch. If you are going to have a fairy tale guide your life I see virtue in making it at least up to date, to get rid of stuff that is simply wrong and get rid of moralities that are repugnant in this modern era...I refer to, but not exclusively to, treating slavery as the norm or to stone to death ones new wife if she is found not to be a virgin. You really can make a list...but of course a preacher picks out the few good bits and most never read their bible to discovery it contains so much stuff that is nonsense or clearly immoral by reasonable standards in this era. To defend editing such nonsense really suggests that you are a time traveller from the bronze age. Take the book of relevations...the stars shall fall upon the ground..now what is wrong with that? Stars are the suze of Suns they cant fall on the ground... So you treat a prophesy as in relevations as credible, it comes from an ignorant fool presumably drunk or high on something rambling what can only be said to be incoherently and not making sense....now just imagine you are sitting at the bus stop and some poor devil is sitting alongside you saying such stuff..talking to himself like the author of relevations....would you not then say that this is a crazy man rambling and high on drugs...think that thru please... I ask what virtue is there in supporting something that is just simply hidiously incorrect and reflective of an ignorant fool ranting somwhat incoherently and having folk think he made any sort of sense. Oh the beast means this and that represents this or that...no if it is to be treated seriously it should be clear and make perfect sense...but clearly it does not and is nonsense. Defending such nonsense cant be pushed aside as claiming it faith or needs interpretation..its just nonsense and should be thrown in the bin...dont you agree?☺ There is a lot to be said for leaving the bible in the bronze age as it infects folk with ignorance in this age...they somehow think the bible is the word of God. ...well if we are to let the masses believe in some fairy tale at least cant we get it somewhat correct ..or leave it as it is and so it is used to cultivate stupidity and ignorance. I think most of the flat Earth followers cite one holy book or another as authority for their delussion. And the flood at least localise the event so we dont have a situation where we have a story that is just impossible. Alex
That would be a big if as really there is no need for a God when you just think clearly and rationally. I would hope scientists have the ability to think clearly and rationally such that thete is no room for make believe. Alex
He may have made other contributions that are worthy of reporting but in my opinion this is not one of them. His words borders on deepity ...probably on the inside of that border. Just because someone is famous and respected for certain achievements does not mean everything they say makes sense...this is a good example of just that. Alex
And what determines the context of human society? For instance, would you maintain that slaughtering children is a malicious act, even if a majority had views to the contrary? Or do you think there is a universal framework of values that persist despite whatever human society dictates as acceptable or not? Obviously. But does human society have the capacity to embody universal values? What would evidence of a universal agent look like? Life has an uncanny ability to evade (at least on a certain level) what seem like straight forward necessary relationships of cause and effect.
