Is Government Debt Immoral?

So what is YOUR alternative?

How should the government raise money?
Or do you believe in having no government whatsoever?

 

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Man power. You grow 100 pigs, and I'll throw out 1,000 bags of garbage, and thats the television guy.

We all work the same, and we all get the same. / We all work, there is enough for everyone, and the harder you work the better you get.

More to come on this topic... Do you guys understand communal living?

 

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Looking at a plastic mockup of a human is a far cry from a human. Looking at computer images is even worse. USYD is probably one of the better Australian GMP and it's complete crap.

As for how other GMP are run? I've been told UNSW is relatively good. Maybe University of Melbourne. Although I do know they accepted a total hack there two years ago so one does have to wonder. In general, you're best off going with a foreign trained surgeon: French, American or Iranian (going in cold). If you can afford it, fly to Japan. OR, and this is the best option, you have to know the actual individual, watch their career, have had a hand in training them and then you can go speak to them about your problem and they will send you to the right people.

Just as in any socialist paradise, it's all about WHO you know. There's no market in medicine to weed out the crap so the only thing you can do is actually know it yourself.

:bugeye:
I'm related to Asians by blood that I love. I've paid to send relatives to Asia and spend a lot of time living in Asia myself. I study Asian history and language. I like to spend time in China and have lived in Japan. Most of my friends are Asian. So, whatever gave you the impression I have a xenophobic attitude to foreigners, especially ones from Asian countries is about 180 degrees from reality.

I may have commented on the fact that 1 in 4 Australians are born overseas? I think soon it will be 1 in 3 and over the next decade you'll see that flip where 1 in 3 will be 3rd generation "Australian" (say 'White) and the other 2 in 3 will be from elsewhere. But, I don't think this is a bad thing, it think it's a GOOD thing. I'm all for INCREASING the immigration from Korea, China and Japan. But, for Australians not used to Asians, well, you may see some shifts in the society some won't be comfortable with. I OTOH will be. The Australian government likes to "import" high-skilled labor. The type of people who work-hard. That type of person, generally, has a low tolerance for the welfare State you live in now. Particularly the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. Hell, I even know Asians who don't think it's fair Australians seem to be living off their hard labor. Talk about true Libertarian minded people. Yeah, you don't get the labor and not the mind attached to the labor. So, I'm looking forwards to the trade agreements AU negotiated with China in the future. It will be interesting. Very interesting times ahead.

Don't worry Jamese. The Carbon Tax will reduce the prosperity of Australia, it will not reduce AU carbon emissions (ah, hellooooo the entire economy is based on mining!!!), it will have no effect on global warming (as CO is going to increase anyway) and ultimately the money raised by the tax will be squandered on pet "green" projects of government officials to buy their electorates off. Passing out indulgences much like the Ancient Popes or clientela of the Roman Aristocracy.

The last thing to come out of the AU government is innovation. Just like all governments it simply can not know where or how to invest. It doesn't work in tightly controlled State-run Communist markets, the chaotic Free-Markets (where innovation actually has a chance of happening) and certainly not in the poorly managed Social Engineered Market Australia passes off for an economy.

But don't worry, there is the mining boom and many years left to milk that cow dry. So be happy James, you're getting everything you want. A nice little commodity boom and a population happy to spend it on themselves.

 

Well, there's no quick fix if that's what you're asking me to provide.

I'd begin with introducing currency competition. In the USA I'd try and tie this with state-state competition. Reduce the role of government such that over time it'd have a limited role in people's lives. Say 5% GDP. Reduce most regulations. Get rid of corporations so that actual people are sued. It won't be a fine paid by Exxon, it'd be the CEO et.al. that would have to take responsibility.

On top of this I'd like to see the scientific merits for peaceful parenting promulgated into the social consciousness (which it is).

I think a free-society in a free-market with a foundation in ethics, and humans who have been raised peacefully that things will sort themselves out.

 

The history of democracies is really easy to understand. It's one of the easiest and most obvious lessons of history. Unfortunately, as we also know from history in an even more obvious and easier lesson to learn, men are incapable of learning even basic lessons from history.

In the late stages of a democracy, public debt becomes an issue that is a main ingredient of the death of that nation. Democracies, democratic republics, become a new sort of nation - most often some form of dictatorship.

One of the men who understood the history of democracies wrote a paragraph about public debt in a rather well known letter to a friend:

"I have thrown out these as loose heads of amendment, for consideration and correction; and their object is to secure self-government by the republicanism of our constitution, as well as by the spirit of the people; and to nourish and perpetuate that spirit. I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom. And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers. Our landholders, too, like theirs, retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must wander, like theirs, in foreign countries, and be contented with penury, obscurity, exile, and the glory of the nation. This example reads to us the salutary lesson, that private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance. And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering. Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man. And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Kercheval, June 16, 1816

But even our Founders and Framers in the US knew full well what they were building would not last, and how it would die. Democracies never do last, and always commit suicide. Massive untenable debt is one of late stages.

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Adams

But men never learn this, they are incapable of doing so, they always feel their time, their nation is different. It's rooted in the the psychological game of 'it can't happen to me'. Thus history repeats itself. None are so deluded as the self deluded.

Ideological self delusion distracts the masses, the few who even pay attention to any degree and aren't watching 'the games' in the arena(we have so many games today), while the corrupt government continues to destroy the nation in service of the wealthy and powerful. Throwing all manner of goodies to the voters that cannot be paid for, to continue the game by getting votes from the very people they are oppressing. The politician has to get money from the rich, and votes from the masses, while promising to protect each group from the other, and give expensive favors and gifts from the treasury to each. Debt grows until it is untenable. There will either be a great war that can delay the inevitable, or a change into the very despotic form of government the democracy had initially replaced.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." - George Orwell

 

What a demonstration of complete ignorance of history, economics and government. Perhaps you can provide a listing of great democracies that failed due to debt burden?

 

Germany - which ultimately led to WWII

 

Please do explain and provide evidence.

 

Hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic contributed to the Nazi takeover of Germany (Adolf Hitler himself in his book, Mein Kampf, makes many references to the German debt and the negative consequences that brought about the inevitability of "national socialism").

AND the rest my dear Watson, is History

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But don't worry; Americans are nice docile fat creatures that aren't about to rock the boat. National Socialism was swallowed by the Cattle Class years ago. And we have big wars once a generation to keep the Cattle confused and disoriented. Probably another big one coming up soon. And The Federal Reserve monetary system isn't about to change. You don't have to worry, about the unelected "Technocrats" like Corzine being held to account, instead they will continue to buy off POTUS like Obamney and continue to run America into the ground. It'll just be a slow shitty decent into Hell just as it has been the last 40 years. A titanic this big just takes a little while to sink. But sinking it is.

 

Mike Rivero goes off on this topic in hyperlucid detail...its a pretty funny rant!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOe0YagYERE&feature=g-hist

 

So because Adolph Hitler said so, it must be so? That is your argument?

Now back to name calling.

 

:bugeye:
You asked for an example where hyperinflation led to the collapse of the democracy. I provided you with the classic example. One that most historians agree. As a matter of fact, it's the reason why following WWII the response was much different compared with the aftermath of WWI.

 

The fact that hyperinflation is bad is still many big leaps of logic from establishing that government borrowing is "immoral" as such. A borrowing program that results in hyperinflation is one that was mismanaged fatally, in the first place.

 

Correlation is not causation...and even the correlation in this case is not accurate.

German hyperinflation occurred in 1921-24...Hitler came to power in 1933 after a period of debt deflation similar to what was happening in the US.

 

I suggest you read Quad's post. http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2954911&postcount=254

You were quoting Hitler as your proof. Most historians agree the Weimar Republic experienced a period of hyperinflation. But most historians don’t agree it was reason the republic failed.

The period of hyperinflation experienced by the Weimar Republic is not evidence that all democracies are doomed to fail as a result of excessive debt. The Weimar Republic failed for a number of reasons and numerous bad decisions extending back into the days of German Empire (monarchy). It was not because of hyperinflation.

There are many states today that have successfully endured hyperinflation (e.g. Argentina, Russia, Brazil, Mexico, even the Revolutionary United States, etc.) without collapsing. Where do you think the phrase "not worth a continental" originated?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation#Brazil

 

According to this logic Constantinople also didn't fall. I mean, there it is. The descendants of the Romans who founded it are still living in the city. Roma was sacked by the Visigoths, but there is still stands. The CCP wiped out much of Chinese culture, even going so far as to alter the entire official language, but there China still stands.

Nations don't collapse.

Yes Joe, hyperinflation or deflation is a symptom of what's happening financially, socially and politically. WoW, we agree you can't have anything happen in a bubble :bugeye:

If you don't agree that hyperinflation played a role in the rise of National Socialism, then there's no amount of convincing that's going to change your mind. But, you're an admitted National Socialist with Fascist sympathies so go figure. You support government taking our money through income tax and redistributing it as it sees fit - including to the massive millitary war complex and you think that government should step in and support "key industries" when they get themselves into financial trouble instead of the free market.


Will the USA collapse? No. Was that the question? I personally DO think Democracy has collapsed. We now live under the auspices of the Federal Reserve. The Central Government is the largest on the planet. Elections are charades played out with puppets who the media chooses to put in front of us and they do the bidding of their wealthy benefactors. We are forced to give up our labor "for the Good of God and The Nation" and our children are sent to die in wars on "Terror".


We don't have control over our destiny. It's all up to a few crooked fat White men who run the Federal Reserve Bank and what they decide to do. We could have more inflation (Ben's stated goal is to steal at least 2% from the public) or we could have deflation and live through 15-20 years of stagnation like Japan. No one CAN know because it's all up to the Federal Reserve board. Which is exactly as you like it. Technocrats tell the public what to do, instead of the Public doing so in a free-market. Crooks like Corzine steal BILLIONS without formal investigation and America continue s down into the toilet.



Don't worry Joe, QE is coming ... another sign of a "healthy robust economy". It's been 5 years Joe, plan on 15 more.

 

Hogwash, nations do collapse. Do you want a listing?

You are changing your story. Now you are saying that hyperinflation played a role in the rise of the Third Reich. That was not your original claim. Hyperinflaiton did not cause the collapse of Germany. And hyperinflation, as previously proven, does not automatically equate to destruction of the state per previous examples.

American democracy is certianly under assualt with the recent Supreme Court decision Citizens United and the proliferation of voter suppression laws but it is not dead. American democracy will only die when we the people give up or allow ourselves to become pawns for the people you support. Government, the very government you hate, is the only power you have to keep special interests that rule this country a bay.

 

Name a few nations that have "collapsed" so that I can see how you are defining the word.

The "Third" Reich never happened. As for the rise of National Socialism in Germany, yes that did happen and the then leader of the party specifically claimed it was due to hyperinflation. Of course, hyperinflation had it's causes as well and so on. SO, if the words from the leaders' own mouth who led the nation and the National Socialism Party does not convince you, I am sure nothing I could write is going to do so.

Democracy is dead. And has been dead for a long time. We're living in our own National Socialist Fascist State and have been for generations. Just exactly how YOU want it. You're Cattle on a tax Farm Joe, no different than any other livestock.

As for government debt being immoral. Selling 30 year bonds on the labor of your children IS immoral because it's stealing. No one should be allowed to take a loan out in their child's name. That IS immoral.

Everyone knows printing money doesn't create wealth. The newly printed money can only have value by taking some value from all the other money, which does represent real wealth. Inflation therefor steals wealth from people who worked a lifetime, saved and now are retired. That is immoral. You're stealing from them.


Lastly, that you WANT to live in a Fascist State where a few unelected men make decisions FOR YOU. That why Democracy is dead and gone. People don't want to live in a free society. National Socialism, didn't work in the past, doesn't work in the present, plan on seeing QE3 and 4, 5, 6, 7 soon enough.

 

Cuba, USSR, Cambodia, to name a few.

So according to you the Third Reich never happened? And you are back to citing Hitler’s statements as your source.

Hogwash, you cannot make a coherent argument Michael, so you are reduced to setting up straw man arguments and name calling.

I and others have repeatedly pointed out your many errors in these comments. But that does not stop your devotion to repeating the party manta. You are the man citing Hitler, the most powerful fascist leader in history, in an attempt to bolster your notions.