Is it possible that our universe exists inside blackhole?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Iceberg75, May 16, 2017.

  1. Iceberg75 Registered Member

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    Because the background of our universe beyond stars we see is either dark or black, like the blackholes. Imagine if we could somehow travel fast and far enough reaching beyond our universe, somewhere between 14 to 100 billion light years, suppose there's event horizon that would access to the next universe? Time, gravity, size relativities would probably be different but would our physical structures and whatever we brought with us automatically adjusted to match? The moment we exited our universe, everything we knew of our universe probably would be all gone, changed or recycled because of gravity and time differences base on how fast blackhole spins. Earth could be a billion years older within several hours of us being outside?

    Also is it possible the blackholes could be portals to each of their own universes or could they be wormholes to different universes while all multiverses sharing the same space that could be either infinity or trillions light years of each others? Scientists have been saying our universe is expanding but could our universe be stretching like how everything is pulled and stretched inside blackhole? Stretching and expanding aren't the same thing, are they?

    If we could survive exiting our universe that is inside blackhole, wouldn't we be able to survive returning being reduced down to atom size or beyond matching its space size, time, and gravity? If space sizes can be infinity like time, but they all have to share, when sharing, does it takes away the infinity itself as they become finite? Our universe could be one of bubbles inside next plane of space with its own bubble too. Universe can change like bubbles you see in water. Does it means our ocean is infinity if using ocean as analogy to universe? But our ocean will eventually be evaporated someday.

    These theories base on fate of our universe that it will die or run out of fuel, such as big freeze, heat death, big rip, big bounce, false vacuum, etc, same thing with blackhole. They both have parallels, don't they? When our observatory detected huge explosion 10 billion light years away, I thought maybe something has entered our universe like how one of blackholes has swallowed a star, even a hypergiant. Maybe our universe (within 14 billion light years) is at its limits and the only way to reach beyond than that if we can survive entering next universe in the same way we enter blackhole. For something like this huge explosion to appear into our universe, whatever it was, it looks like it hit on the other side of our universe because our universe or everything around us could be stretched spherically. We got lucky that this huge explosion didn't appeared right next to our galaxy or in one our neighborhood systems but there's always next time.

    https://www.universetoday.com/134826/deepest-x-ray-image-ever-made-contains-mysterious-explosion/
     
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  3. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome to the forum.
    The science section of the forum is for discussions about science, what you are doing is making speculations that are not or cannot be backed up with sound science. The type of speculations you are making should be discussed in the Alternate Theory section of the forum, not in the science section. I will ask the mods to move it for you.

    Maybe an xray source like the one you are talking about did happen in our galaxy. If it happened 10 or 11 billion years ago it would not really effect us.
     
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  5. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Lots of questions for an very active imagination

    May I suggest you channel such imagination into writing a book

    Supplement your ideas with some understanding of the subject of your writing but try not to bog down with reality as you write

    Look at all the fiction which exist which pays no heed to reality

    I wish you well and I hope you send a copy of your first book and a invite to the movie premiere

    Cheers

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  7. icarus2 Registered Senior Member

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    I’m sorry, I can’t speak English well.

    =====
    Is it possible that our universe exists inside black hole?
    =====

    In my personally opinion,
    black hole has a zone that has a uniform energy(mass) density within R_gs(30% of event horizon) due to the presence of gravitational potential energy with negative values. Therefore, we can lives in a black hole.

    ~~~~~

    II - 1. Black hole does not have a singularity and there exists a zone that has a uniform density within the black hole.

    The concept of gravitational self-energy is the total of gravitational potential energy possessed by a certain object M itself. Since a certain object M itself is a binding state of infinitesimal mass dM, it involves the existence of gravitational potential energy among these dMs and is the value of adding up these.

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    \(M = \sum {dM} \)

    Gravitational self-energy or Gravitational binding energy(\(-U_{gs}\)) in case of uniform density is given by:

    \({U_{gs}} = - \frac{3}{5}\frac{{G{M^2}}}{R}\)
    (\({U_{gs}}\) : gravitational self-energy)

    Meanwhile, looking for the size in which gravitational self-energy becomes equal to rest mass energy by comparing both,


    \( {U_{gs}} = | - \frac{3}{5}\frac{{G{M^2}}}{{{R_{gs}}}}| = M{c^2} \)
    \( {R_{gs}} = \frac{3}{5}\frac{{GM}}{{{c^2}}} \)

    This equation means that if infinitesimal mass is uniformly distributed within the radius \(R_{gs}\), gravitational self-energy for such an object equals mass energy in size. So, in case of such an object, mass energy and gravitational self-energy can be completely offset while total energy is zero. Since total energy of such an object is 0, gravity exercised on another object outside is also 0.

    Comparing \(R_{gs}\) with \(R_S\), the radius of Schwarzschild black hole,

    \( {R_{gs}} = \frac{3}{5}\frac{{GM}}{{{c^2}}} < {R_S} = \frac{{2GM}}{{{c^2}}} \)
    \( {R_{gs}} = 0.3{R_S} \)

    This means that there exists the point where gravitational self-energy becomes equal to mass energy within the radius of black hole, and that, supposing a uniform distribution, the value exists at the point \(0.3R_{S}\), a 30% level of the black hole radius.

    Even with kinetic energy and virial theorem applied only the radius diminishes as negative energy counterbalances positive energy, but no effects at all on this point: “there is a zone which cannot be compressed anymore due to the negative gravitational potential energy”.


    From the equation above, even if some particle comes into the radius of black hole, it is not a fact that it contracts itself infinitely to the point R=0. From the point \(R_{gs}\), gravity is 0, and when it enters into the area of \(R_{gs}\), total energy within \(R_{gs}\) region corresponds to negative values enabling antigravity to exist.

    This \(0.3R_{S}\) region comes to exert repulsive effects of gravity on the particles outside of it, therefore it interrupting the formation of singularity at the near the area R=0.

    Negative mass’s motion : Anti-gravity and Uniformly distribution

    Refer to 4m 0s.

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    Fig.02. (a)Existing Model. (b)New Model. The area of within \(R_{gs}\) has gravitational self-energy of negative value, which is larger than mass energy of positive value. This area (within \(R_{gs}\)) exercises anti-gravity on all particles entering this area, and accordingly prevents all masses from gathering to r=0. Therefore the distribution of mass (energy) can't be reduced to at least radius \(R_{gs} = 0.3R_{S}\).

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    2-6. Expansion of the general relativity
    2-6-1. We can solve the problem of singularity by separating the term(\(- {M_{gs}} = \frac{{{U_{gs}}}}{{{c^2}}}\)) of gravitational self-energy from mass and including it in the solutions of field equation.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    II-3. \(R_{gs}\) of the present universe
    \( {R_{gs}} = \sqrt {\frac{{5{c^2}}}{{4\pi G\rho }}} \)

    Use to the Planck data(`2013, h=0.678),
    \( {\rho _{c,0}} = \frac{{3H_0^2}}{{8\pi G}} = 8.64 \times {10^{ - 27}}kg{m^{ - 3}} \)
    \( {R_{gs}} = \sqrt {\frac{{5{c^2}}}{{4\pi G\rho }}} = 2.49 \times {10^{26}}m = 26.3Gly \)

    If the universe that was born in high density state, universe does not a singularity by gravitational collapse, but must expands to the \(R_{gs}\)(26.3Gly) at least.

    ======
    #Paper
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309786718_Size_and_Expansion_of_the_Universe_in_Zero_Energy_Universe_Logical_defenses_for_the_Model_We_are_living_in_a_black_hole
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  8. icarus2 Registered Senior Member

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    101
    When many people think of a black hole, they recall a strong gravity and also have a strong antipathy against the statement that people are living in a black hole.

    This is because people do not think deeply of the meaning of formula, but rather are trapped in stereotypes resulting from the knowledge that they had obtained. In other words, they are trapped in this kind of thought that a strong source of gravity that light can't be escaped and a high density celestial body.

    However, event horizon \({R_S} = \frac{{2GM}}{{{c^2}}}\), which defines the size of the black hole contains more.
    This formula suggests that if the mass of black hole M gets larger, the radius of black hole, i.e. its size gets larger.

    The higher the mass of black hole, the smaller the average density of black hole gets.
    \( \rho = \frac{{3{c^2}}}{{8\pi G{R^2}}} \)

    If you are still uncomfortable with \(R_{gs}\), think about a black hole with the size 10 billion times bigger than the solar mass. Schwarzschild radius of this black hole is \({R_S} = 3 \times {10^{10}}km\) and \(R_{gs}\) of this black hole \(1 \times {10^{10}}km\). Average density of this black hole is about \({1.81kg/m^3}\). However average density of the Earth is about \({5,200kg/m^3}\).

    Arithmetic indicates that the average density of black hole that is composed of \(10^{80}\) protons drops to the current density level of the universe.

    That is, as the larger the mass of black hole, the average energy density gets gradually smaller, the mass of a certain size has the same density as the current density of the universe and thus it doesn't matter at all even when living organisms live in it.

    The existing general relativity couldn't provide a uniform distribution of matter in a black hole, but this could be accounted for by the model that I propose.


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    There exists a repulsive force within the radius of \(R_{gs}\) as gravitational potential energy is a negative energy. Therefore, matter (energy) distribution is essentially closer to a uniform density within the radius of \(R_{gs}\)(30% of the event horizon).


    Therefore, we can lives in a huge black hole. And perhaps, we living in a black hole.
    Maybe, you call it the Univer................. -_-;;;

    ======
    #Paper
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309786718_Size_and_Expansion_of_the_Universe_in_Zero_Energy_Universe_Logical_defenses_for_the_Model_We_are_living_in_a_black_hole
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  9. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    3,103
    No

    Your English is fine

    Understanding of physics is wonky

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  10. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I am not familiar with the frontiers of current cosmology.

    There was a time (circa 1950-1960, I think) when a possible description of our universe was an alternating bang crunch & there were knowledgeable cosmologists who believed in such a universe. Such a universe could appear to be a black hole to an external observer, but I am not sure that it would necessarily be such. That was not the only candidate for the nature of our universe at that time.

    I do not think it is considered a plausible cosmology now.
     
  11. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    It has not been ruled out.

    <>
     
  12. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    3,103
    IF IF IF our Universe appears as a black hole

    to a external observer it could only be because of its

    effects on what ever lies OUTSIDE our Universe

    Not implausible

    What would be outside of our Universe to be affected by our Universe being a black hole?

    Stars ? Other Universes? External Dark Matter?

    Good speculation but with no method to detect anything outside our Universe put such speculation in the realm of science fiction

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  13. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Not exclusively. Other than the logicly impossible, it is good to speculate & discuss. Sometimes that helps science.
    Once upon a time, the Big Bang would have been thought of as such.

    <>
     
  14. birch Valued Senior Member

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    3,656
    this universe reminds me of the beast in the star wars movie. maybe it is alive and it digests life. that's what i feel like it is. a venus flytrap where there is no escape except death.
     
  15. river Valued Senior Member

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    Has mathematics , physics equations , become the gods ?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    So the human race is fallen down a bottomless pit.
     
  17. river Valued Senior Member

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    No
     
  18. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    12,406
    WHERE would they have fallen from?

    <>
     
  19. The God Valued Senior Member

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    3,485
    Refer to CODATA, see if mass and radius of visible universe is given or not. Calculate the schwarzschild radius for the given mass of universe, if it is more than the radius of universe, then yes we are inside a black hole.
     
  20. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    3,942
    The idea that matter can exist in a more or less normal state inside of a hyper massive black hole of which the known universe would be an example comes from an alternative to General Relativity pointed out to me in another thread about alternative theories of gravity by Q-rreeus. The theory is by Yilmaz, who evidently was a close friend and colleague of one of my former mentors at the University of Maryland, College Park in the 1970's.

    This information is a sciforums exclusive. Not even the Wikipedia article about hyper massive black holes mentions where exactly the idea for these came from.

    Yilmaz' theory of gravity also suggests, paradoxically, that more conventional black holes of the non-hyper massive variety do not exist. I have already pointed out that this would mean Saggitarius A is something other than a black hole.

    Something I did not point out last time was that hyper massive black holes exist also. At least two such objects, although cosmologically distant, have not had sufficient time to acquire their respective masses since the time mark of the Big Bang.

    I hadn't thought along those lines before, and I don't really know if the positioning of the two would suggest, the Big Bang itself may have been the result of a collision between two hyper massive black hole universes. If this were true, it may be difficult to infer whether or not we are still inside of something still massive enough to be a hyper massive black hole, or simply part of a leftover debris field from the collision?

    It might vindicate Yilmaz' theory of gravity if that were true, but then, what was it, exactly, that the LIGO gravity wave detectors picked up for the first time in history only last year? So far, cosmology seems to have a lot more questions than any answers it can provide with a satisfactory level of certainty, and this is setting aside any viable models for the place Dark Energy might fit into the big picture. The whole thing could be spinning as well, which would make it even more difficult to parse the effects of gravity from rotation on the largest cosmological scales.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  21. river Valued Senior Member

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    9,058
    Our thinking has become so mathematical , that we have become lost in numbers .

    Numbers is what we have come to respect , because for the most part , most of us don't understand them , so we leave these mathematical numbers and concepts to the "experts " .

    Black Holes are not even proven yet .

    We don't yet understand the full light spectrum of the Sun , for goodness sake .

    Cool it people , we have much , much , much to learn about our solar system let alone the whole of the Universe .
     
  22. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    145
    It's a nice idea, that seems to get around the problem of traveling unimaginably long distances to other worlds.
    Current theories about black holes, however, indicate that entering a black hole is a really bad idea.
    As you approach the Event Horizon, time slows down and matter is stretched and crushed.
    Inside, nothing happens, apparently, because time stops, according to the mathematics.
    The extreme conditions predicted by the mathematics involves infinities, which, it is thought, cannot actually exist in the real world.
    This suggests that our theories cannot be complete.
    But I wouldn't recommend testing the theories.
     
  23. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    It depends on what you mean by "proven". It is generally accepted by people who take the trouble to investigate the Cosmos professionally, that most galaxies, except very young ones, have a monster in the centre that gobbles up whole solar systems every few of our earth seconds. Gravity waves, recently detected, are thought to have been produced by colliding black holes. The evidence is very strong. Some cosmologists have suggested that "dark matter" is actually tiny black holes, smaller than electrons. If this is the case, then they are probably very common.
     

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