Is it possible to believe in God, and be a darwinist at the same time?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,427
    wegs,

    Does there have to be ''alternative explanations''?
    I just see them as different explanations of the same evidence.

    I don't think there needs to be an ''alternative explanation''.

    What point would that be?

    Why is darwinian evolution so important?
    What are your reasons for accepting the darwinian explanation of the evidence?
    And finally why is it an either/or situation. I could easily just say ''yes, the majority of scientists say they accept evolution, so I should also accept it on that basis'', but what good is that to me. I'm no further to knowing the actual truth.

    I don't accept the explanations, because they don't make sense to me, and I'm not the type of person who accept things because others do.
    I cannot accept Whale evolution, it just seem preposterous to me, especially when I see it in film format.

    If it's true, then it will find a way to connect, as any other truth does, but I'm not going to force myself to believe it because everybody else does.

    You're talking about choices we make. I'm talking about your natural bottom line position, regardless of whether you are aware or not.

    That does not answer the question.
    I want to know why you personally accept it. There must be some experience that occurs revealing something that makes it acceptable to you.
    How does darwinian evolution work for you, in your life?
    Is it an important revelation? If so how?

    jan.
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Don't even fucking start again. We have shown you the evidence for years on this forum. It's overwhelming. And you don't want to believe it. We can't be responsible for your religiously motivated ignorance. Why don't you go to church and leave these thinking people alone already? You are preposterous, not evolution.
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    OK so what is it that made you think that Victor Stenger was an expert on/in the teachings of all major religions?
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,507
    Here is some of the stuff that standard evolutionary theory explains easily and efficiently and nothing else handles well:

    The following 6 links are to pictures of six animals, all of them warmblooded and terrestrial. Their appearance, their material manifestation, is a product of developmental somatic growth governed by the DNA as expressed in their embryonic and juvenile environment. They look as they do because of their DNA, basically. We have demonstrated that in the lab.

    Now the DNA sequences, the specific genetic coding, is very different in each of them - but in one particular pair, it is considerably closer than in any other pairing possible among the six. That is, of the fifteen possible pairs, one will be found to be notably more similar in the two codes than the other fourteen. Those employing Darwinian Theory will have no trouble correctly predicting which pair, and explaining why. Those without such theory will have much more trouble choosing the pair, and will I believe find it all but impossible to even approach explaining the comparative similarity.

    http://ds-lands.com/data_images/animals/dassie-rat/dassie-rat-03.jpg
    http://animals.desktopnexus.com/get/381367/?t=bmk0ffqkou0qd60oqijffmrvs45216367558894
    http://www.ozanimals.com/Mammal/Long-nosed-Potoroo/Potorous/tridactylus.html
    http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=m...or-a-snooze/&docid=h5esgNvg214qqM&imgurl=http
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/23/hedgehogs-spotted-uk-gardens
    http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34700000/Grey-Elephant-colors-34712003-2293-1553.jpg
     
  8. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    6,788
    Jan;

    I appreciate your points above...I didn't want to bother quoting everything.
    Honestly, I truly don’t care if you accept evolution, but if you don’t…you must have an alternative in your mind as to how mankind arrived here.
    But, that’s not the point of the thread. The point I think is can someone be a believer in God, and evolution?

    Do you think so? Yes, or no?

    If no…then, that is actually more of the point of the thread. It has derailed into arguments and straw man nonsense, for and against evolution. But, that’s not your point in starting the thread, going with the thread title. The OT here is ‘’can someone be a believer and believe in the theory of evolution?’’

    I say yes. What do you think?
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,427
    I don't accept the explanations. You think it's overwhelming, I don't. It has nothing to do with what I want or don't want, plus you don't even comprehend what you regard as my ''religiously motivated ignorance'' which is why you regard it as ''religous'' and ''ignorance''.

    I accept that to you Whale evolution isn't preposterous, but it is to me.
    So please keep your facist, bullshit, intolerance to yourself

    jan.
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,427
    Wegs, I asked you some important questions in my previous response, and once again you have avoided them, while continuing to ask more questions. I have given a truthful response to your questions, and would appreciate a response from you to the questions I asked.

    I don't think it is possible to actually believe in God, and accept the darwinian idea of evolution unless something gives. Either you create a strawman God in which you write in his role, purpose, nature, character, and so on. Or you tailor make evolution to be something that God intended but had no control over meaning that God is not a Supreme Being, but is something like a demi-god.

    As you do believe in both, it would be interesting to find out how you think it works. You don't seem to accept any scripture (but I can't see how you would come to the conclusion that there is a God without them), yet you believe in God, in a similar way to religious people. No scripture hints at the darwinian process (aside from vedic scripture which explains a similar process in another way. Perhaps the subject of another thread?).

    jan.
     
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    This is a great example of why religion is a problem. Not that it makes people violent, anyone can be violent. But it leads people to deny reality in favor of their fantasy stories. Note that the only counter to evolution is that there is a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them.
     
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,427
    spidergoat,

    In this case it is your religion that is a problem.

    Your type of religion makes people violent because it is one of elitism, and gross intolerence.

    Whale evolution the movie, a great example.

    You're bothered about darwinian evolution, I'm not. It's not important. It is only important for you because it gives you some kind of intellectual satisfaction in giving you a reason to force your atheistic ideology on to the the world. I don't know what it is with you religious types, you get an idea and you want to change the entire world.

    I'll leave you to your ignorance regarding scriptures. That said. Bye!

    jan.
     
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    6,966
    "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."

    No side to this dichotomy is the problem. The problem is the problem!
    The more one attacks, the more defensive becomes the other side, and the continuation of the attacks derive from defensive posturing.
    The only way to end any war is to stop fighting. Not with words, and not on the battlefield, but in your hearts and minds, YOU must make the personal choice to understand and forgive, and just not fight.

    Jan, anyone who truely loves GOD must love all of GOD's creations, not just some, some of the time, but all, all of the time.
    If you love god and appreciate the gifts of god's creations, then you must want to know all that you possibly can about those creations and thereby get to know GOD just a little bit better. And, for that , Jan: Science is a very valuable tool!

    Spider when you post words like "a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them."
    You show your ignorance and weaken your arguement. Have you actually read that BOOK? Cliff notes don't cut it.
    I read the thing and I gotta say that I never got the impression that it was written by superstitious "goat herders". There is a whole helluva lot in there about how to get along with your neighbors, including some pastoral prejudices. And, should that fail, there is a lot of information about using terrain and psychological warefare to win battles. (still studien in military colleges)

    If you do not comprehend metaphor and parable, and you cannot understand the actions of the people mentioned therein in an historical perspective, then, the BOOK will be worthless to you.

    In the meantime, I am well educated in religious studies, and the study of man, and I do not ever see a conflict between a belief in "god, yhwh, the TAO, the Buddha or the words of the messenger and science(including Darwin's theory).

    Daisetsu Teitaro Suzuki once commented that you could not teach nor express ZEN in words, and then proceeded to write several books and articles on the subject...............
    words
    words
    words
    we post and think we understand
    but
    we only understand the meanings of shadows of nuances of words
    not substance
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    A few posts later:

    So you favor alternative explanations, but they don't need to actually exist.

    Well, that certainly solves the problem of you having to explain them.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,534
    That's due to your belief that your view of God is the only valid one. Plenty of people believe in God and accept evolution.
     
  16. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    for at least yourself, yes. you don't need to explain anything to me, per se. but, we are on a forum where discussion is the point, and so, when someone says...'I don't believe in evolution,' there should at least be a reason as to why. You have said why, it doesn't make sense to you. But, then, what is the alternative? Is it Scripture for you?


    Everyone decides ultimately, what to believe. If the Bible didn't exist, what would you believe? If you're being given answers by science, proof by science...would you just throw your hands up and say...I don't know how we got here. Even with evidence? If so, why?



    The point is...that we seem to be having a circular discussion about whether the theory of evolution is plausible, as opposed to the crux of the thread really being about if people believe someone can be both, a believer and a Darwinist.



    To me, I find importance (and fascination) in having an understanding of where mankind came from and where it's heading.

    The evidence (not only the explanations for it) seems overwhelmingly plausible.

    Do you accept other scientific theories? If so, based on what you say here, why?
    ''Theories'', while they all differ and support different findings, are all born from the same methods as to how they became theories.
    The theory of evolution is no different in that regard.

    That's fair. I don't come to an acceptance of things that way, either. I research and reason my way to truth, as others have, who follow the theory.
    If something doesn't make sense, I'm not sure I'd toss it out, based on that only. But, fair enough, you answered this. Thank you.


    Everybody doesn't believe it. Many don't. But of the many who don't, they don't know why they don't. Or they feel that in order to accept it, they mustn't be faithful believers then.



    sorry, aware of what?



    it does

    As I stated above, the evidence and explanations of it, are overwhelmingly plausible.
    I don't require a personal view, to believe it.
    My belief in God is a personal view.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's why I warned you about "elaborating" - he hasn't answered any of your questions, nor has he explained and justified any of his claims, nor (I predict) will he: instead, he attacks personally, accuses you of something (based on an "elaboration" he requested), and you can't cajole him into being reasonable like this:
    Telling him "that's fair" and "you answered this" when he's just repeated his earlier assertions - repeating the exact stuff you asked him to explain, answering nothing, and accusing you of what he's doing - will not pet him into ever actually answering questions or discussing issues. Thanking him for his trolling will not shame him into desisting. He knows what he's doing, he likes it, and he's going to keep doing it.

    He has no argument against Darwinian Theory, and no "alternative explanations" of his own - we'd have seen them by now.
     
  18. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    6,788
    iceaura;


    Here are the cliffs as I understand them:

    1) Jan admitted to not accepting the theory of evolution because he said it doesn't make sense
    2) Jan, I think (?) believes that Scripture points to the origin of man (could be seen as an alternative, to evo, no?)
    3) I thanked him based on #1 and #2
    4) I have no desire to shame him or anyone

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    The reason this thread has gone as long as it has ...is because many here allowed the discussion to spiral downward into arguments and straw men for and against evolution. Jan doesn't care about evolution, honestly. The thread simply asks the question...''can a believer of God, also be a Darwinist?

    I understand your frustration, though. But, convincing Jan of evolution was never the point of the thread.

    Just my $.02
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  19. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    3,215
    Jan started the thread, apparently to tell people who believe in both evolution and "God" that they are wrong.

    Jan is a troll, pure and simple.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    sculptor,

    I'm not disputing the value of science.

    jan.
     
  21. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Jan Ardena

    No you don't, you believe because that's what you were indoctrinated to believe. You can not have knowledge of non-existent things.

    Which idea of god? All but one(at best, as even you would agree)are crap, and due to a complete lack of evidence, I think even that one is. It is replacing investigation and confirmation with superstitious non-sense. It's replacing "I don't know" with "I'm with stupid".

    I take the Father's word as to his beliefs, maybe you should take his word about that huge, unthoughtful blind spot you have concerning scientific knowledge, hmmm?

    Scientists actually look, so yes, IF such evidence appears, I will recognize it. 60+ years so far, no such evidence.

    Mankind and his accumulated knowledge. As opposed to his accumulated , supernatural, superstitious explanations.

    Grumpy

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  22. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    More utter bullshit. You are biased toward your own religious ideology, and as I've explained before this ideology is the platform from which you declare that Christian's are interpreting the Bible incorrectly, or that Muslim's are interpreting the Qur'an incorrectly, or that theists like `Abdu'l-Bahá (the founder of the Bahá'í faith) are incorrect in their assertions that evolutionary theory is compatible with theism, or that the Deists are incorrect in their assertion that scripture is not divinely inspired, or any other claim you wish to make about metaphysics, theology, theologians, religious people, or pretty much anything that comes to bear on any of these things.

    It is the very act of making claims like these that reveals your ideology, and since it is an ideology that primarily relates to God and His relationship with creation, and since it puts you in conflict with the ideologies of other theists, it is quite clearly (and by definition) a religious ideology.

    Honestly, I generally don't call religious people delusional. But to be in denial about this is the very definition of it.

    The irony lies in the fact that you are interpreting the Bible to suit your worldview. You can deny it all you want, but to do so is to keep embracing that delusion.

    Because you're clearly not reading all the links I'm giving you, and you've been exhibiting this sort of laziness not only throughout the course of this discussion, but many others. In this most recent instance you clearly only bothered to follow the first link and thus failed to address the content of all the others, which collectively constituted a study of multiple verses.

    Some housekeeping:

    Do you accept that a Christian who embraces the sort of reading of the Bible that leads to standard Christian theology is indeed a genuine theist as long as their faith in God is properly genuine?

    Grow some balls and answer the question.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  23. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    2,422
    The delusion is strong with this one...

    Elitism and intolerance is exactly what you are promoting here. You are essentially spitting in the face of those who seek to resolve the conflict between science and religion, not to mention any other theist who has views that are not in line with your own in some other way.
     

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