is it wrong to THINK it?

hi there, this has just been posed on another forum i attend(no real consensus though), and the question is basically.....if i want to do something illegal/immoral, as in REALLY want to do it, but dont do it because of fear of punishment, is it as bad MORALLY as actually doing it?
Have a think and let us know....
taffy

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Taffy Wake ...

If you REALLY want to do it, you do it without consideration of the possible consequences.

If you do consider the consequences and use them as justification for not doing it ... you REALLY didn't want to do it.

You do what you have to do ... the rest is mind-games.

 

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Thought and action

The difference between the two is that the action has a much larger impact on others, and yourself, than the thought. The thought always manifests itself in some way, because it has been thought, then it has a reality. The non-physically-activated thoughts gather in a common thought-pool, where they linger around to find a suitable way of manifesting themselves. This they do because every action ( even mental, as thought) must have a consequence, it´s the law of karma. The fear of punishment is a reminder that you are doing something that is not alligned with what your soul wants to do.

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If thinking about doing something was the same as actually doing it, we could be brought up for so many crimes based on our dreams. I dreamt one time that I murdered someone. No reason for why, I just walked up behind an innocent person on the street and fired a round through her head, spattering her brains all over the sidewalk. I stood over her body for a minute and marvelled at how easy it had been. Then I retrieved the bullet from her head (for some reason there had been no exit wound) and walked away. When I woke up, I felt very guilty. I felt absolutely terrible,a s though I had actually committed the deed. It took me all day to shake the feeling. I felt like I still had to answer for it. It was weird. I even tried to induce a continuation of the dream so I could turn myself in to my subconscious justice system. It never happened. I had committed a dream-murder, and my mind was making me get away with it. It still bugs me a little.

I'm rambling now. I just had to get that off my chest.

 

That is exactly how the spirit of murder works.

If you don't get rid of it, you'll end up on death row writing poems about how you are the master of your own destiny.

 

tony1 ...

Drawing upon personal experience?

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Oxygen

Be thankful for the experience your dream brought you. You got an inside view of violence, that you may have lacked before and therefore not taken that act of violence as serious as perhaps you do now.

 

You could look at this from the perspective of Conspiracy.

In my country and I'm sure yours, it is against the law to Conspire to participate in a crime. This doesn't just mean that you think of how a crime could be commited, but there would have to be substancial proof to indicated that you were about to and were capable of doing such a crime.

This means walking past a bank and seeing a lone security guard with a brief case, you could think how easy someone might mug him or even from your perspective. (This of course could be laid down as just an active imagination from watching too much television.)

The Conspiracy charge wouldn't apply unless... you had began gathering equipment to do the crime, and staked out the times the security guard was there and you are in fact plotting to do a crime (rather than just walking past and putting it out of your mind like some imaginative film plot)

It can be said that humans are very emotional, and that we do think things in immidiate response to how we judge something at that moment.

We might think hastey, and sometimes people do react hasteyly.
If you keep your mind clear enough to spot the difference from Lunging at someones neck in an attempt to injure them and just being extremely piffed of with them to blame then I wouldn't call it a crime, I would just call it instinct.

This feeling of retaliation is very fundamental to our nature, especially when you look at other animals, like a cornered dog or a tiger in a cage. (Of course this is due to preditory instinct and on occasion a mixture of fer and an attempt to surive.)

Of course we have only looked at is it a crime to think, but then there is the point that To think could be also percieved as a punishment.

Imagine a villian placed in a cell that isn't placed on a death row because of the legal system, but to pay for their crime they are subjected to Thoughts. The question here is what sort? You could create tortureous thoughts, but if/when they are released to society they now suffer from that torment and it makes them far worse than they were originally, Perhaps thoughts showing them their error within their ways and to give them some insight in a direction they should travel. this would be more understandbile and would really be reconditioning.

 

tony1- Letting a different discussion flow into this thread, eh?

I think Bebelina nailed it. I had wondered before what it would be like inside to kill somebody in cold blood and get away with it. Of course, common decency and morality prevented me from actually experiencing it. I guess my subconscious said "You wanna know what it feels like? Here." It felt awful. I guess that shows I'm basically one of the good guys, I hope.

Someone once ticked me off enough that I actually wished I'd had a gun so I could put her out of my misery. That was before I had that dream. Now, although I have gotten that ticked off and worse, I think twice before entertaining such thoughts. I often refer to a favorite quote of mine. I think it was Mark Twain who said:

 

Taffy,

A neat question.

First define what you think is morality. One person’s view can be very different from another’s. And religious morality is very different to a secular morality. Once you are happy with a comfortable definition then that will allow you to easily guide your actions and whether you should commit this action. It will be very clear. I’ll come back to this in a moment.

Secondly: Estimate the long-term benefits or disadvantages of your action. If the short-term result is a temporary gratification but the long-term effects are feelings of guilt and regret then that latter effect will generate significant stress in your life, and if there is the chance of being eventually found out then that will generate feelings of fear, all of which generate significant stress. Stress has the effect of many other disadvantages – ill-health, unhappiness, etc. Balance these disadvantages with what you might gain.

Back to morality: This is concerned with what you see as good and bad. From my perspective good is anything that helps me to survive, or in other words something that enhances life. Anything bad are things that detract from life. Anything that makes me happy and free of stress will tend to extend my life with quality. Feelings of guilt, fear, worry and stress, will tend to shorten my life and make me miserable.

Religious morality is far more confusing and has nothing to do with your well-being. Religious morality is a set of commands defined as if coming from an authoritarian supernatural being purely for the benefit of that entity. If you believe that such an entity exists and you break one of the rules then the punishment is usually some form of eternal damnation. If you follow the rules then you achieve eternal paradise when you die. Your guideline for whether you commit an immoral act in this regime is governed by a fear of eternal damnation. Religions rule by fear.

Back to your question: If your sense of morality is strong (well defined in your mind) and comfortable then committing the act will be equally bad as it is morally bad, they are one and the same thing. The fear of punishment should not be the deciding factor. However, such fear of being caught or the misery of the punishment will very likely diminish your quality of life, i.e. will detract from life (morally bad).

Other considerations: To maintain a good quality life I need to be surrounded by a helping and happy society. If I steal from or harm others then that action will detract from the happiness of my society and that ultimately detracts from the quality of my life. Such actions against others are therefore morally bad within this definition. Helping others or society increases their happiness and quality of life and that in turn enhances my quality of life (morally good).

So here are two rules that I follow as my primary guidelines –

Everyone should be free to do anything they wish providing such actions do not interfere with the freedom of others. Essentially live and let live.

Seek out and participate in any activities that enhance life and that of others, and avoid any actions to the contrary.

The key to answering your own question is to establish a clear definition of what you understand by morality.

Cris

 

Taffy wake

If you do not think it, chances are someone else will........

 

But that doesn't necessarily mean that if I think it that noone else will.

 

RE;think it

Just because you think it,it does not mean you have to do it.

 

You bad human...

Well, first it depends what are your reasons. But let's say you wanna kill someone just for fun or because he/she pissed you off in some manner. In my opinion it is just as wrong to think it as it is do do it. Because fear of punishment and such are just obstacles, something that prevents you from doing it. They are not justifications. If those obstacles were to vanish you would have done it in a minute. But I say this only in case you REALLY want to do it and your reasons are let's say... unjust. Everything else are psychological effects, mind playing tricks and so on... |----

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Cris (and many others),
in case you haven't noticed:

just placed you between the ethic objectivists. In the end, relaitivism really is the "more confusing" alternative.
(Hmm, I wonder: is it really an alternative? ;-) )
And unfortunately for most it holds that "Religions rule by fear." But it really is not what religions are about!
Please enjoy life and let go of this strange relativism.

Picard,
Good point. I believe I need not say more than that I agree with you.

"Live long and prosper."
Merlijn

(Oops I did it again.)

 

Coincidentally, I finished a book last evening that considered this very question. The User Illusion, by Tor Norretranders maintains that when the desired response is at all uncertain and if the available time for action is sufficient, it is a function of the unconscious-self to provide a menu of options to the conscious-self. The conscious-self is limited to merely having the power of veto over these options. In an emergency the unconscious-self bypasses the conscious-self altogether, producing an action directly. Herein lies the problem! We do not always have the luxury of a conscious veto of the options presented to us by the unconscious-self. We occasionally must act first and think later!

However, an important function of the conscious-self is to train the unconscious-self. This is evident when you watch a person learn a new dance-step. They watch their feet, consciously thinking out each step. Their movements appear clumsy and forced. But with practice the unconscious mind learns these new dance steps. Eventually one is able to glide through the dance in synchronization with the music, all the while holding a conversation, or perhaps thinking about tomorrow's breakfast.

My own thoughts on the matter.

Throughout the course of our lives, our conscious-self laboriously teaches our unconscious-self the rules of moral behavior. Gradually, the unconscious-self assembles a master menu of moral options. On each occasion that we consciously make a moral choice, we reinforce to our unconscious-self that this choice belongs on the master menu.

If I should come upon a man of obvious wealth lying drunk in an otherwise deserted alley, my unconscious-self promptly generates a list of options for selection by my conscious-self. Each man presented with this scenerio will produce a list according to his own past behavior and previous conscious intentions. The list of a criminal might include theft and murder as primary options, while high on the list of a benevolent man might be that of helping the drunk into a taxi, or perhaps summoning the police. Strangulation followed by theft, for example, would not appear near the top of the list of a man whose past life has been composed primarily of benevolent acts.

With each conscious action, we train our unconscious-self as to how we would like it to behave. In cases where instantaneous action is required, we lose our power of conscious veto. We lose our freewill. We are on "auto-pilot". Our only hope is that our years of correct moral choices have trained our unconscious-self to produce the proper response.

If I were a man with a history of immoral behavior, I should be terrified to go about my daily life. I would forever dread a situation arising in which my unconscious-self would be called upon to directly make a decision of moral importance. I'd fear that my automatic unconscious response would include chain saws and stilettos, instead of acts of kindness. Since we are all one unconscious act away from a long prison term, the moral state of our unconscious-self should be of utmost concern to us.

Is it wrong to consider an occasional immoral thought? No, though hopefully such a thought would be accompanied by a feeling of discomfort rather than pleasure. A history of recurrent immoral thoughts should however, be taken as a warning that your moral safety net might be fraying. An otherwise rational man has no excuse for training his unconscious-self to produce immoral choices and actions. It matters not that your action was carefully and consciously considered, or that it was produced directly by your unconscious-self. In either case, we bear a singular responsibility for our own actions.

Michael

 

It happens tht someone really pisses you off. For me it frequently happened with my physics teacher, an ancient relict, who doesn't like new theories.
I came home, turned on my PC and played UT and immagined tht every enemy I met was him. I sorta released all my anger on virtual identicals of him. The next day I could again disput with him without murderous thought in head. So it is relly like relaxation.
In my thoughts I have traveled back in time and took over the world with nowaday technology, blown up few buildings, killed, transformed, become immortal , and what not.
I create these virtual worlds to actually do what I want or have always dreamed of doing. And nothing wrong with tht.
The only thing tht I don't like about it is tht after really magnificent feats and fantasyes I feel terrible when I "wake up" and discover myself in this very boring reality.

 

Hey Avatar,

I understand what you're saying about the need to loosen your spring. When I was young, boxing was my chosen method to release anxiety. After a hard fight I had just enough energy left to take a shower. Instead of wanting to kill my opponent, I usually ended the fight with more respect for the guy.

I have an idea for you to try. The next time you use your thought to travel back in time, imagine using your power to humanely control the world's population, feed the starving, bring them clean water, reduce their hatred for each other, and give them a reason to hope for a happy life. This would be vastly more difficult and challenging than just blowing things up.

A pile of rubble is really boring. Just think of the idiot who tried to blow up his tennis shoes on the flight from Paris to Miami. If he had succeeded there might be just a few bits of debris floating on the ocean instead of a hundred human lives, complex lives of joy, sorrow, and wonder.

It's strange to learn that you find reality to be boring. I'd expect to hear that from a tired old man instead of from a kid. From the moment the doctor held me by my legs and slapped my little ass, I've been astounded by this life. I still believe it's all too good to be true.

A few years ago everyone was excited by the "new" Internet. Now many people yawn when they mention it. If Aliens landed in Washington D.C. tomorrow morning, by next Christmas most people would be bored by them.

The world is scarcely made to my liking. Still, something of beauty seems to always be close at hand. As I write these words I'm listening to Handel's "Messiah" playing on the radio. Despite the fact that I am perhaps the world's most devout atheist, this music sends a chill of happiness up my backbone. I imagine they are singing instead about mathematics or philosophy, the things that most inspire me. And Christmas to me isn't about the birth of Jesus, it's about man's hope to live together rationally, and as brothers.

My Christmas wish for you is that this world is revealed to you in its majestic complexity. Hmm...It wouldn't hurt to fall in love either.

Merry Christmas,
Mike

 

"imagine using your power to humanely control the world's population, feed the starving, bring them clean water, reduce their hatred for each other, and give them a reason to hope for a happy life. This would be vastly more difficult and challenging than just blowing things up. "

I know tht it would be a challenge, but it is not my style. feed the poor, bring peace etc. sorry

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Perhaps next time I will imagine myself as Alexander the Great, but definetely not mother Teresa.

About Boxing. I understand you so very well and agree too. I am training in Taekwon-Do and share the same experience as you do.

"It's strange to learn that you find reality to be boring. I'd expect to hear that from a tired old man instead of from a kid."

I'm a more complex person. I am very happy about this world and I marvel at its beauty. Long walks by the sea, hiking etc. I find it very very interesting and attracting. The problem I have. For 5 years now I live in the capital city. Lots of people and no trees. [I expect this summer to be better though].
And at the same time I scream for adventure, for battles fought long ago, for wonderous space adventures of the future. And compered to that, my life really is quite boring. And while I have no definite plan for my future, I intend to spend my life as interesting and exciting as I can. I do not want and never will spend my whole life writing papers and things like tht. Life is too precious to spend it on small things.

Enjoy your life!

And merry Christmas to you too.

 

Good stuff Avatar,

I'm happy to hear that you don't want to spend your life pointlessly pushing papers around an office desk!

It's so funny, you remind me of myself 20 years ago. I became restless while studying philosophy during my second year at the university. As time went on I began to find any excuse not to do my assigned reading. I'd go to the gym and lift weights instead of studying. I'd dream about experiencing life instead of just reading about it. So I quit school and joined the military. The really funny part was that as soon as I was out of school I started to read philosophy again. My shipmates quickly learned not to ask me about the "strange" books I was forever reading.

If you're getting restless in Riga, when you've finished your secondary education, strap on a backpack and go see the world. My brother just finished a one year long trip around the world. He tells me that Thailand, for example, is a paradise. The cost of living is low and there are lots of young people hanging around. If you can't afford that, hitch a ride down to France and join the Foreign Legion. You could still go to the university later. You don't have to live your life in the order prescribed by convention.

Actually Avatar, I'd rather you join the French Foreign Legion than emulate Mother Teresa. Though she appeared to be a kind and well meaning woman, her primary mission was to make new Catholics. Did you see the film, Enemy At The Gates, in which the Soviet propaganda officer made the sniper into a "hero". The Catholic Church used Mother Teresa in a similar way. Her work with the poor conveniently drew attention away from the devastating effects of the Church's anti-family-planning policies in parts of the third world. She handed out Band-Aids while the church was in effect, busily cutting off legs. The poor and uneducated people of Central and South America, for example, actually listen to the teachings of the church. The Vatican might tell them that god wants them to be socially responsible, and have small families. Instead the church tells them to "go forth and multiply". The scale of human misery in certain parts of Central and South America is overwhelming. Vast neighborhoods of metal and cardboard slum houses surround many large cities. Unwanted children walk the streets carrying their little jars of gasoline. Perhaps I'd do the same if I were faced with similar hopelessness? The relief work done by the church is dwarfed by the problems they help create. It's not fair to lay the blame for all the world's population problems at the feet of the Catholic Church. India, Bangladesh and the like, have their own reasons for drowning in a sea of humanity. But hopefully the Catholic Church which claims to champion good, all the while preaching ideas that multiply human suffering, will one day place compassion above ideology. (Sorry, I didn't intend to rant)

I share your love for hiking in nature. My wife and I recently walked across England from the Irish Sea to the North Sea. Our next trip will hopefully be to walk across the south of France from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea.

I usually work alone in a small television transmitter hut located on top of Mount Mansfield in Vermont. But this morning my wife is here with me on top of the mountain. At the moment she's making an apple pie for our Christmas dinner. Bach's Christmas Oratorio is playing on the radio. The sun is reflecting brilliantly off the snow and Ravens are flying across the window in front of my desk. I don't think life could be better than it is this morning. I hope your Christmas is as happy!

Good luck in your travels Avatar,
Michael