is life about the survival of the fittest chemistry?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by globali, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. Your assertions are based on semantics.

    You seize upon some word - such as 'selection' - find an alternate meaning (by looking in a dictionary and misusing what you find there) - then assume the two meanings apply to the same thing - then take off on flights of fancy from there.

    Currents in rivers select for particle size/density.
    In areas where the current ebbs, dense particles, such as gold, will settle.
    Areas where there is strong current are stripped of all but the largest, heaviest rocks.

    You would argue that rivers have intent. That they make choices. All by your semantic corruption of the word 'selection'.
     
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. What seems to be missing is the discussion is the role of emergent phenomena. Sentience, intelligence etc emerge from biological structures that do not themselves possess either.

    Just as temperature, pressure or a liquid or solid state of matter emerge from the behaviour of collections of molecules, none of which individually has any of these properties.
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    They are NOT properties of molecules in a collection

    They are a arbitrary measurements

    A recording of the state of the collection recorded at the moment the collection is within what ever the conditions the collection finds itself

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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. It was an EXAMPLE. Claiming that therefore the word includes volitional choice is asinine. You might as well claim that "choice" applies only to the selection of candidates and nothing else because of the example.
     
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,935
    No. Pressure, for example, is a real thing. It existed before anyone came along to measure it.

    So did temperature. The temperature scale came along to apply measurements to it.
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Volume - mass - shape

    Anything else is a localised condition dependant on local conditions and a only records a portion of the matter

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  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    And yet, they all existed before humans came along to measure them.

    Pressure controls the shape of the Sun without any human there to measure it.
    Temperature melts ice without any human there.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I did not claim pressure or temperature did not exist

    Although a case could be made they DON'T exist - period
    • They are concepts with no physicality and
    • Being codified does not confer existence on them

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  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty sure you did in post 183. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.

    Pretty sure I refuted this in post 187:

    Pressure controls the shape of the Sun.
    Temperature - specifically warm - melts ice.
     
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Correct you read it wrong

    And repeated in post #189

    Pressure is the amount of force exerted per area and the units of pressure are newtons per square meter

    Units of pressure do not have a physicality which would confirm their reality

    Temprature is a measurement of the degree of hotness and determined by average speed of the molecules. Various scales are used to determine this average speed

    Units of temperature do not have a physicality which would confirm their reality

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  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The are not arbitrary. All physical properties are measurements.
    They have the same physicality as length and mass.
    Volume is as localized and dependent on conditions as pressure and temperature.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Volume, pressure, and temperature, are mutually interdependent physical properties. They are equivalently possessed of physical reality - they often share a single graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PVT_3D_diagram.png
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Objects with physicality can be measured yes

    Measurements however are arbitrary and do not have physicality

    I will give you mass but not length

    Agree

    I have not said that the properties of matter (Volume - mass - shape) do not change die due to localised conditions

    Those localised conditions are not properties of the matter

    Coffee time

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  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What you did say is:

    In short, you said "temp and pressure are measurements, not properties."


    Yes.
    Whales are subject to it when they dive. Their lungs get compressed by as much as 90%.
    Air masses are subject to it, resulting in adiabatic cooling.
    How are these not physical?

    And, as Iceaura correctly points out (and every scuba diver is taught) : pressure, volume and temperature are all interdependent in gasses. It would be impossible for the physical properties of volume and pressure to change, without the commensurate temperature change. Thus, temperate is as physical as pressure and volume.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    I think I am going to double, even triple down about properties of matter

    Before I was trying to think of a science teacher I had, back in the Dinosaur age.

    His take, if I recall correctly

    Mass is the only intrinsic property of matter. The rest are variables subject to variation dependant on local conditions. No mass, no matter. Matter has mass that's it - period

    The mass remains constant, regardless of conditions, unless, and only unless, mass is ether added or subtracted

    Don't know, but fairly certain, that is not verbatim

    Any other so called properties (I recall he was dismissive) rely on mass. They are not present if mass not present

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PVT_3D_diagram.png

    Pretty diagram but I don't see mass in the picture

    Back to coffee

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  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Pressure and temperature are physical properties. You originally suggested otherwise.

    Now you're saying they're not properties of individual particles of matter.

    Okay, no one said otherwise. No one was talking about the properties of particles.

    Pressure and temperature are properties of matter - which can be comprised of an unlimited number of particles.

    Do you disagree?
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Noooooo. Read post #195 again..

    They are not intrinsic properties of matter

    Mass is the only intrinsic property of matter

    The remaining properties are not intrinsic. Matter has them because we assign them but they are not capable of being present independently on their own.

    No physicality.

    Regarding temperature this may be of interest
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Temperature_Scale_of_1990

    The only intrinsic property of matter is its mass. It does not come with a built in temperature (however if you specify specifically a number of very precise conditions you can identify which type of matter you are dealing with

    But a particular lump of matter can be (colloquially) hot, cold, round, square, solid, liquid gas etc etc etc but retain its only intrinsic property mass

    1am to early for coffee. Will download local newspaper and go back to sleep

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  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but I suspect it has got garbled.

    For fundamental particles you certainly need some intrinsic i.e. unchangeable, properties, viz. mass, charge and spin.

    And then there are other variable, i.e. not intrinsic, properties such as relative velocity or momentum, which are physical too, as they result in measurable physical effects, such as pressure, temperature etc.

    I seem to have inadvertently started a new sub-topic.

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  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I remain unconvinced that such features of the world as size and shape and location and volume and temperature and pressure and velocity and so forth have no "physicality".
    The workings of a basic internal combustion engine, for example, while they have little to do with mass, seem not only largely free of "arbitrary" features but unarguably manifesting "physicality" to whatever degree the term has meaning.
    The conclusion would be that physicality is not an intrinsic property of matter - ok.
    I don't think there are different types of intrinsic mass. Are there different types of matter?
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Don't know where that came from

    Mass has a physicality and is the amount of matter present

    Mass is just mass - intrinsic has no meaning as in "intrinsic mass"
    What would it be intrinsic to?

    Different types of mass???? Sure. I knew of 4 - Solid - Liquid - Gas - Plasma

    On updating now it seems 7 (perhaps more when science sorts out new discoveries)
    ****
    February 12, 2004: We learned it in grade school. There are three forms of matter: solids, liquids and gases.

    But that's not even half right.
    ......
    "When you find a new form of matter," notes Jin, "it takes a while to understand it."

    https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2004/12feb_fermi
    *****

    So 7? perhaps more????

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